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| - Does that help you? I hope it does, if not - try clarifying what is it you don't understand so this troper (or somebody else) can focus on it
* Here's the big issue. Hylden General/Sarafan Lord is the same character who was possessing Mortainus/Janos in Defiance. He was able to set his plans into motion by manipulating Raziel into tearing the heart of darkness out of the Scion of Balance-- Kain-- and putting it back into Janos. He presumably knew that Kain was the Scion(He knew Mortainus put the heart into a vampire he believed to be the scion, which was Kain), and he believed that by tearing the heart out of the Elder Kain, Raziel had killed him. So, while leading his army against the Younger Kain's vampire army, how is it that he thought he could actually win? Kain has to survive to become the elder Kain that Raziel takes the heart from, which is how his plan gets put into motion. For Kain to survive, that means the Hylden General can't kill the younger version. Yet he has complete confidence his plan will succeed inspite of coming into conflict with Young Kain, he is surprised that Young Kain survived their first battle, and has complete confidence he'll kill Kain in their final showdown.
* He doesn't refer to Kain by name when gloating over Raziel. It's possible that he didn't know who the hell Raziel actually was, or who the Scion of Balance was. He certainly didn't know that Kain survived having the Heart torn out. Moebius and the Elder God have one thing that he doesn't: temporal omniscience, or at least in Moebius's case the ability to look into the future with the aid of magic.
* Word of God says that the Hylden and the Hylden Lord can look into Nosgoth's timestream to see the future, which is how they planned everything out. It's been hinted at that their method is different from the Elder God and Moebius, but the specifics aren't given.
* But that doesnt explain how they just forgot to have counter measures for the younger Kain when they could clearly see in whatever means they had of seeing the future that HE will destroy the Hylden Lord and all their plans
* They did indeed have a counter measure for the younger Kain: The Nexus Stone. When Kain battles the Sarafan that the Hylden have revived they are defeated and Kain is thought to be dead while having the Soul Reaver taken from him. With that in hand there would be no way for Kain to do any of the timeline chicanery that he ever gets up to. As they were stuck in an extradimensional prison they are likely aware of only the original timeline where Kain takes over the world, creates Raziel and then dies in the future. So by taking the Soul Reaver, wiping out the vampires and then preparing to wipe out all life on the planet they likely figured they had all their bases covered.
* The afterlife in Legacy of Kain is a pretty bleak place, isn't it? The Elder God claims he spins souls in the Wheel of Fate so that they can be reborn, but it is implied that he is just hungry. So either you get eaten by a Sluagh or an agent of the Elder God, or you stay out of their grasp, but then you'll be in the spectral realm forever. Just what is gained by getting rid of the Elder God?
* Perhaps it would free up the souls to do whatever they want? But anyway, it's not really a matter of the Spectral realm - EG is just a bastard. Because of him (it?) the Ancients died out. Cuz he was just hungry. For all we know, he may have caused the conflict between the Ancients and the Hylden - it's a suitably dickish move for him. He is also at least indirectly responsible for the whole of Nosgoth going to Hell - the Ancients, who are holding some dudes locked away, and the dudes really want to take revenge on all of the world for that, die because EG pretty much tells them to. The humans "rebel" against them, and kill every Ancient that hasn't slit his own throat for the Great Squid One. EG then proceeds to manipulate Moebious into raping history to ensure that his master will have more food. A chain of events that end up with Nosgoth a wasteland and vampires chewing the remnants of humanity. SR2 shows that later on demons (Hylden) show up and continue destroying the humans. Also, if BO2 is to be believed, the Hylden constructed and gave humankind steampunk-y energy source and technology in order to completely murderize them after a while (using the Mass).EG is shown to constantly manipulate everyone, who is so much within six degrees of separation with him, for his own petty egoistic gluttonous ends. And doesn't particularly care about the rest of the world, as long as people keep dieing.
* "Perhaps it would free up the souls to do whatever they want?" Yeah, but they don't seem to be very happy there, judging by the lamentations we hear in Defiance. Ah well, at least the material plane might become a nicer place...
* What I meant was, that perhaps EG is stopping the souls from going on their way, or something along those lines. They are lamenting mainly because they've been trapped there for an eternity (remember how slow the time passes in the Spectral Realm) but maybe it doesn't need to be that way. Either afterlife or heaven/hell, or something else may have been denied to them.
* Another possibility: The Sluagh are not "vermin," as EG refers to them, but the twisted, mutated forms of the creatures that are supposed to be reapers of souls. He obviously views them as competition, which is why he wants Raziel to kill them whenever he encounters them. Though this is heading down a WMG path...
* Besides, it seems that there is no end in terms of body mass that the Elder God has and the souls may as well be like you and me trapped in the stomach of a large creature and he is just waiting for us to go mad so its enzymes can digest us
* Here's a thought, Raziel. You were told to kill off your brothers. Why not raise up an army of humans and take them over? Here's a better thought: Don't. Do. Anything. Just go back to your clan territory and hold up in there because, every move you make? Makes everything WORSE.
* A. The humans clearly aren't very good at killing off vampires, as evidenced by the fact that, well, the vampires took over the planet. B. Yes, because Raziel knows the consequences of actions he hadn't even thought of yet. It's only after Soul Reaver 2 that he even sees the results of a lot of what he's done, you expect him to sit around and do nothing at the beginning?
* How does that make any sense whatsoever? Why would he go to the human citadel and raise an army when he was perfectly capable of attaining the vengeance he sought all by himself?
* Raziel was executed for surpassing Kain in evolution, yet Rahab evolved immunity to water and gets to live. The dialog when Raziel meets him in the drowned abbey suggests that he's not on bad terms with Kain. Is the sunlight vulnerability such a hindrance that Kain overlooked Rahab surpassing him?
* Kain got over it. When it was only Raziel changing he was envious. When all his other lieutenants started evolving soon after, he just threw up his hands in frustration and figured there was nothing he could do. One clan of vampires could be exterminated but even Kain couldn't destroy the entirety of the vampire race by himself, even if he wanted to. Later (both in this game, and the "I always knew" retcon for the later games) he could see by means of the chronoplast that Raziel would need to be executed and consume the souls of his brothers in order to play the game of destiny (or cheat the game of destiny, whatever).
* Yeah, the "he evolved before me" thing was an excuse, not the real reason. Kain was simply waiting for that change to come, and after he dunked Raziel, it was only a matter of waiting some more, so he didn't care what the others evolved into.
* It wasn't that Raziel evolved something "better" than Kain, it's that he evolved before Kain. Vampire evolution doesn't happen gradually; they enter a hibernation every few decades or centuries, and come out of it with a new gift. They do this in order; Kain first, then Raz, so on and so forth, presumably absent their control. Raz happened to lapse into the state of change before Kain did, and that was the problem, even though it was mainly an excuse.
* Hang on. If a new guardian is born when the old one dies, and Kain is assassinated at the beginning of Blood Omen, where's the next guardian?
* I'm guessing whatever Mortanius did at the beginning of the game kept the guardianship from passing on.
* Word of God from Amy Hennig states that the Pillars did not call new guardians because they were not capable of it. When they were corrupted, they could not call new guardians and would not be able to unless and until Kain purified them again by wiping out the Circle of Nine. Obviously, when he let them fall, no guardians could be called at all.
* Raziel does his time-hopping thing and finds Ariel by the pillars. Raziel then states "the pillars were subverted by dark forces invited by the guardians themselves". When did he figure this out? Sure Moebius has that thing going with the Elder God, but that deal being the cause seems little more than speculation at that time.
* Kain probably told him something about it over the couple thousand years that Raz was his right hand man. Kain probably didn't mean the Elder God, but that...thing that possessed Mortanius at the end of the first game.
* Kain going through the Oracle's(Elder God's) time portal in Defiance is an annoying example of San Dimas Time that annoys the hell out of me. Kain could sit around and wait five hundred years and stop Raziel before he ever got to Avernus. Failing that, Kain's demonstrated that he can move around the timeline easily enough, as he did in Soul Reaver 2.
* Kain may not have had access to the Chronoplast anymore at that time. Also, waiting around 500 years carries some risks--Kain probably doesn't want to give his enemies too many chances to do him in, for example.
* I am actually surpriced that the Elder God didnt shut down the portal as soon Kain leaped into that pool of water WITH the portal on top. It would have been actually pretty funny seeing the Elder God doing PSYCH! With Kain in mid air. Falling that he could just let him be trapped in the time wormhole closing both sides of the portals and problem solved
* Elder God's as big of a fatalist as Kain is. He needs to let things play their course along the wheel. Also, it isn't just about Raziel killing Kain; he needs Kain in the future so Raziel gets absorbed into the reaver.
* Ignoring Male Gaze, the women's outfits annoy the hell out of me. I can understand the vampires, but what about the humans? The lack of coverage doesn't offer much protection from attackers or the cold, and the men are generally covered up. (Edited for possible Wild Mass Guessing.)
* Male Gaze/Fan Service really is probably the only reason. That said, the armor the men wear doesn't really make a ton of difference anyway.
* For people who care so much about the cycle of life, death and rebirth, the ancient vampires sure have a lot of undead guarding their forges in Soul Reaver 2, which clearly have souls. Apparently corrected in Defiance, where their Ragnarok Proof security is handled by golems.
* Why, in Soul Reaver 2, does Raziel rush to get the Fire Reaver, open the special door, zoom to Janos's aid, then stand there for 15 seconds while Janos gets his heart ripped out?
* They were pretty damn far away. From that distance, there wasn't much of anything that Raziel could do.
* It wasn't that far. He was on the edge of the same room that He and Janos walked across in the earlier cutscene. Even if it was too far, the sight of a wraith running towards them may have briefly stopped their execution of Janos. Instead Raziel just stands there, mostly out of sight.
* Were the Hylden evil before they were banished? The only concrete facts about them from before their imprisonment was that they fought a war against the Vampires which the Vampires started over the fact that they did not worship the Elder God (Which, since he turned out to be evil, is arguably a point in their favor). Their evil actions don't start until after they've been trapped in another dimension by the power of the Pillars for hundreds or thousands of years. Did their imprisonment make them evil or were they always that way?
* The one glimpse into pre-banishment hylden society we get is the Device, a weapon designed to wipe out all intelligent life except for them. Granted the war could have pushed them to extremes. My guess? They were morally grey-to-black bordering on Blue And Orange morality.
* Actually i believe that they are more like Well Intensioned Extremists if we consider that the wiping of all living creatures in Nosgoth as a safe way to ensure that the Elder God died and doesnt manipulate anyone forever. The problem with this idea is that i dont know how the Hylden knew that the Elder God isnt a god per se but a creature acting like one to the Ancient Vampires or how they do EVEN know if this plan is going to work. Sure, all creatures will be dead but i am sure that after many milenias the world eventually will have life again or at least the Hylden will become the dominant race that after a bunch of time they will evolve in different races that will replenish the planet.
* Here's one for you. In Soul Reaver 2, when Raziel was sent to the future instead of the past like he wanted, Vorador was supposed to be long dead. But when you arrive in the swamp, two of his magical crows can be found, and vanish when approached.
* That's a small enough detail that it could be hand-waived as an oversight from the developers, but it's also been speculated that Vorador was never completely dead, or that he had some way to partially regenerate. So, the fact that Kain was never shown resurrecting him before Blood Omen 2 isn't a problem since Vorador had some means of surviving past Moebius' beheading.
* We don't know how Vorador controls the crows. Just because he's dead doesn't mean they disappear. They could just linger on, waiting for their master to return.
* Why Kain or Raziel they never try to meet their younger selves? wont that create a paradox they need? even if that doesnt work it would be nice to see that. To see how the younger Kain would even react and to see how several acts of this kind actually serves to reinforce the fact that destiny isnt going to give in so easily.
* Raziel's never in control of his travel's through time, he just sort of goes along for the ride. And he does meet his younger(human) self. Kain's a fatalist. He didn't meet his older self growing up so he knows he doesn't meet his younger self now. He can't do it because he didn't do it.
* That is assuming that the Choronoplast Chamber that Kain used to find out about every predestined event up until now WASN'T tampered by Moebius long before Kain could even consider taking a look there. Think back then in Soul Reaver 1 before the final fight with Kain there are 6 cutscenes relation some time-visions (or something) 3 were past visions of actions that Raziel (and the player) already did and the other 3 are from "the future" where 1) he confronts Kain in Nubraptor Retreat 2) Strikes Ariel with the soul reaver and becomes the white reaver 3) Raziel is standing at the top of the Silenced Cathedral after he activated the frecuency that killed all the vampires in the world. (those last visions are actually what could have been in the game but that is not the point) The point here is that we know that those 3 last visions WONT happen at all but somehow they are ignored and not questioned by Kain or Raziel, the fact that these visions could be false doesnt tip them off to ACTUALLY believe the machine was tampered. Even if it wasnt altered there is still the fact that even if Kain doesnt remember seing his older self when he was young, that wont stop Raziel for trying. After all, he has free will and there is nothing he could lose, in fact he could try to visit Younger Kain when he already has the soul reaver on his possession to trigger the almost paradox moment that he need to weaken the flow of time enough to warn Younger Kain
* Why the Elder God doesnt try to brainwash Raziel during the many times he could do it? i mean, i know that calling it a god and being able to do such thing is debatable but he HAS some non human minions that return souls to the wheel and you did think that he would do something like that on Raziel
* Raziel can't be returned to the wheel. That's what gives him free will; he's removed from the cycle. EG does try to force his doctrine on Raziel by giving him a five-hundred year long Hannibal Lecture which we see the tail end of in Defiance, but apparently that doesn't work(though Raziel seems to be getting worn down by it).
* Actually his free will comes from being a walking mini paradox by having his own soul attach to his arm. And Raziel even question if he is indestructible because of the EG or an unseen force and he is taking credit for.
* I'm not buying that Raziel ever killed Kain with the Reaver when he was historically supposed to. In fact, he walked into that confrontation rather intent on not killing Kain, simply because everyone else was compelling him to do so. He knew something wasn't right, and was determined not to be played. Given that he did not have murder on his mind, I have a hard time buying the massive struggle against changing a history that I say never took place.
* This Raziel didn't intend to kill him, that doesn't mean that previous versions stayed their hand. it's very possible that earlier Kains tried different speeches to convince earlier Raziels but failed to. All we see is the one cycle where he does not kill Kain.
* Also, destiny is an actual thing in this series. In the original timeline (if there ever was one), Raziel was not aware of the greater picture and simply killed Kain for revenge. Kain averted this fate by goading Raziel along a path that would make him less single-minded by showing him that there were other machinations at work. Raziel would have killed Kain at that point but chose otherwise, but only due to what he had found out. What Raziel had to struggle against was destiny trying to keep to the script, as it were.
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