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| - 08/12/04 - Town Hall with Robin Linden Basic Subject: Land and Land Prices You = Lordfly Digeridoo Robin Linden: Hi Lordfly! Have a seat. Schwanson Schlegel: hey lordfly! You: good morning. :) James Miller: These chairs are scary. Robin Linden: OK - one more... You: bubble seats of doom Robin Linden: oh yeah James Miller: Oyyyy, I have to go AFK. Robin Linden: hurry back Schwanson Schlegel: i am back now Robin Linden: ok Robin Linden: howdy - last one in! Schwanson Schlegel: woohoo Robin Linden: hi Lenneth You: i can't believe i made this. good karma. :) Wishbash Broom: hello :) tight spot :) Robin Linden: I think we're out of chairs, but feel free to join us Schwanson Schlegel: I am glad you made it to this one as well LF His Grace: hi wishbash. hi lordfly. did i miss anyone? hi if i did. You: howdy his Robin Linden: OK -- first thanks to everyone for coming! I appreciate you joining me Robin Linden: what we're hoping to do here is have a real discussion as opposed to the usual Q&A His Grace: hi alpha Robin Linden: so there are fewer people and many more groups Alpha Zaius: hey Robin Linden: we'll combine all the discussion together Robin Linden: Hi Alpha - please just have a seat on the ground Robin Linden: I'm sorry there aren't enough chairs Alpha Zaius: hehe, no problem Robin Linden: before we get onto the main topic, I wanted to make sure you all knew that we're planning to make a change with the private islands Robin Linden: I think it will affect one or two of you Robin Linden: The islands are going to be made transferrable Grim Lupis: O.O Robin Linden: what that means is if you buy a private island and decide you don't want it anymore you can transfer it to another user to pick up the monthly payments His Grace: woowoo Anshe Chung: Does this affect those already sold too? Robin Linden: if you want to sell it to them the agreement will be between you Alpha Zaius: can plots be subdivided and sold? You: huh. that's interesting. Robin Linden: you'll need to work out the funds transfer through Paypal Robin Linden: LL won't be able to help with billing or enforcement of the agreement Grim Lupis: That might cause you some backlash with a couple of people that wanted to do it before, but weren't allowed. Robin Linden: it will only apply to transfer of the entire parcel, not to breaking up the island Robin Linden: if they want to do it now they'll be able to Lordfly Digeridoo envisions a market of Sim reselling Robin Linden: quite possibly! Schwanson Schlegel: I hope so You: i could see small start up companies doing that, actually His Grace: will there be a transfer/processing fee? You: buying blocks of Sims and then selling them off Robin Linden: we're working on a way for there to be user to user contracts within SL which will make this sort of thing easier in the future You: ooooh Grim Lupis: :-O Robin Linden: we're considering a fee, but haven't set one yet. What do you think would be fair? Robin Linden: it involves a lot of backend database work You: whatever makes a profit for LLabs. :P Schwanson Schlegel: as a consumer my obligatory answer is 0 Robin Linden: hehe - not necessarily a profit making move Alpha Zaius: hmm, how long does the database change take? You: maybe $25 or so? His Grace: hmm... 10% kinda like a restocking or breakeven. whichever is more. Robin Linden: not too long -- it's mostly the number of steps and such Grim Lupis: I was thinking more along the lines of $400-$500 Robin Linden: wow. I was thinking something less than $100 You: 400 bucks for a transfer fee? hmm, well, i suppose it depends on how much work is done Schwanson Schlegel: I think 10% sounds really fair Alpha Zaius: ah.. maybe you should do around a 100 USD fee Robin Linden: 10% of what? His Grace: of initial cost You: $99.99, for a limited time! call now now now! :P Anshe Chung: 10% yes Alpha Zaius: which is 100? Alpha Zaius: lol Robin Linden: well that works out to just under $100 Schwanson Schlegel: 10% of the purchase price, a restocking fee of sorts Grim Lupis: The cost of a NEW private sim, minus the part of that that goes straight into hardware purchase Robin Linden: the cost of the new private island doesn't have any markup in it Robin Linden: we sell them for cost Alpha Zaius: abpout 120 * 12 wich is 1440 (?) Wishbash Broom: $100 is a lot of money to many people, and quite a large investment in a rather small virtual space... my feeling is that land prices in SL have run amok.. Alpha Zaius: 10% Alpha Zaius: 144 His Grace: i think Grim's point it that the HW is already paid for, so just charge the labor cost Robin Linden: which is the *real* reason we're here! You: quick question... assume that small companies DO buy up a dozen or so Sims for reselling... will LLab be able to keep up with demand for other people that want their own Sims? Or are we going to see another bottleneck? Grim Lupis: Ah, well. Then $100 sounds reasonable, as long as it covers the salary of whoever has to do the backend changes Robin Linden: we don't allow reselling of sims so for the moment that shouldn't be a problem Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: (and I was going to be quiet)... well, is there a plan to allow a reterraform of the private sim, or are the new owners "stuck" with the initial terraform of the previous owner? Robin Linden: the new owner will be able to re-terraform the island Robin Linden: there will be more details released -- I just wanted to let you know that was coming up You: sim owners have full terraform rights, correct? Lordfly Digeridoo nods Robin Linden: onto the next thing? Grim Lupis nods You: sure, why not. :P Robin Linden: there has been a good deal of discussion and unhappiness expressed about land pricing Alpha Zaius: hmm.. tahh, was about to say that Robin Linden: Philip posted on the forums some reasons why things may have escalated and promised an opportunity to discuss Wishbash Broom: Yup, and I've been one unhappy customer :) Paid US$100 for a stamp of land... Grim Lupis missed Philips post You: land prices are truly getting out of control... Robin Linden: what we're looking for is some discussion about the process, ideas for where things might go Lordfly Digeridoo missed the post too Robin Linden: it's on the New in SL forum, under Is It Greed Linden Lab? Lordfly Digeridoo will look at it later. :) Grim Lupis: Ahh, I quit reading that thread after the first couple of posts Robin Linden: first -- we've doubled the amount of land we're bringing on in August versus July Alpha Zaius: Im not sure if everyone will agree.. but I think that since land is starting to become scarce, I think that you should only have a limit of one purchase per couple of days Robin Linden: that should start Wishbash Broom: One thing ( which might irritate the land sharks, but make many others happy ) would be to put a roof on land prices.. Robin Linden: to help bring prices down You: hmm... no roof, but we need a couple other things Alpha Zaius: maybe that will allow new people to be able to buy large plots easier Wishbash Broom: f.ex. top price 2.5x the original patch price ? Robin Linden: in a free market though, price controls haven't proven effective in managing anything Schwanson Schlegel: i totally disagree wishbash You: a price roof puts an artificial limit on a free-ranging economy Grim Lupis: I don't like the limit of #parcels over time Marcos Fonzarelli: what about a limit on quantity Anshe Chung: I am against regulation too Alpha Zaius: Wish: wouldnt that sorta increase demand for land? I mean, we need to lower the demand and the price.. Robin Linden: in the real world, developers who resell land add a good deal of value Schwanson Schlegel: I beleive the solution is the increased release of land Grim Lupis: I recently purchased 5 adjacent parcels specifically for the purpose of joining them into a single parcel Robin Linden: and that creates competition between developers His Grace: Robin, you increased the land supply in July, too. What numbers/model do you have to show that more land will easy the land prices problem? Robin Linden: one thing I haven't seen is the rise of a wholesaler group which competes with each other through adding value Anshe Chung agrees with Schwanson You: robin: a problem with simply ramping up production of new Sims is that it hasn't been shown to reduce prices at all... do you rtemember when 1.2 was first released? Marcos Fonzarelli: Value is in the eye of the beholder in SL Alpha Zaius: what you can do, is have an automated form of selling.. Where the land is higher for proce depending on the time the land was put up for sale You: when you released that huge continent south of immaculate? Grim Lupis: Well, Robin, with the auction model, wholesaling is hard to do Wishbash Broom: alpha: demand will always be up, especially since new users really can't do much on the initial 512m2 land theyr'e alotted through the landless program Alpha Zaius: and how long you keep it Robin Linden: it's possible that we'll find we can sell all the land we put online You: for some reason, bringing on more sims isn't reducing prices, whatsoever James Miller: I'm back.. Marcos Fonzarelli: Since anyone can build in SL, it sort of makes it difficult to add value to land You: marcos: not true His Grace: Artificial limits on land prices are too easy to work around. Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: land in and of itself has NO value... it is only when things are added to it that value is added.. and then only in the eye of whoever wants that particular "added value".. the rest of SL could prob care less.... for instance, Cubey's home doesn't You: if you hire a good builder to develop the land, inherant value is increased Grim Lupis: Marcos, not everyone can build WELL, though Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: interest me any more than his land for sale does right now Anshe Chung: Lord, of course adding more sims reduce price, but recently demand also went up Alpha Zaius: thats another problem.. there wre people that would join sl, get expensive land for 512 L$ with land of the landless, sell the land, convert to US, leave Alpha Zaius: new account.. so on so forth Marcos Fonzarelli: Agreed, but most people want the LAND, not what's on it Schwanson Schlegel: perhaps price decrease hasnt been seen because SL's rate of growth has been enormous Robin Linden: I don't think everyone in SL can build, and I also think that as the world grows that will become even more true Grim Lupis: I love Cubey's house. It's his plot that I don't like You: anshe: I have yet to see land prices go down as a result of adding Sims since 1.2. You: it simply has NOt happened James Miller: I agree with that, LF. Schwanson Schlegel: because the user base has increased You: when the lindens released the large continent south of immaculate in... february? the land prices didn't go down... in fact, they went UP Robin Linden: if you look at the prices on a per acre basis they leveled out Anshe Chung reduced prices of a lot of land the last week Oberon Caldera: If building is not tied to the land, though, how does that add value to it? --You can always move a house or buy a new one easily enough His Grace: Schwanson, if that's the case, then more land won't solve the land price problem. Robin Linden: hang on -- i can give you the numbers Marcos Fonzarelli: That's kind of what I was getting at, Oberon You: oberon: good point Robin Linden: it isn't until last month that all of a sudden the price nearly doubled You: oberon: perhaps build according to the lay of the land? it's what i do Marcos Fonzarelli: although I didn't say it as succinctly Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: that increase prob coincided witht he There influx, right? Grim Lupis: I think the explosive growth of the past couple of months has created a significantly higher demand for land than LL anticipated or was prepared for You: or, perhaps, we could make items that are only for a single parcel? Marcos Fonzarelli: The problem LF is that your buyers need taste in order to appreciate those things James Miller: All the land that's "on the market" in the world is owned by a few people, and is for sale. These people, who shall remain unnamed, are jackin' up prices. His Grace: Robin, if you look at Tiger Crossing's data, the price has been increasing in auction since late april Catch Livingston: gotta go ciao You: i dunno, marcos, i'm pretty tasteless, but i get a lot of business :) Schwanson Schlegel: people come to SL to create, the market for prebuilt house/land combos is minimal Robin Linden: bye catch You: schwanson: not true... it's simply untapped Robin Linden: Alpha - there's a chair Alpha Zaius: I saw a website too, so many people are joining a day (like 150 avg) since the CNN stuff.. Before that.. it looked like only 5 a day avg (I may be wrong, I found it from sensor data on a website) You: if people took the "hard" road of developing land, I think you'd see a good competitive market James Miller: That was Ez's website, I think. Alpha Zaius: but it when HIGH Marcos Fonzarelli: The problem LF is that building doesn't cost anything Alpha Zaius: and that can be another problem You: it costs time, marcos Schwanson Schlegel: LF - wanna make some houses to sell on my plots? we can test your theory Robin Linden: it's true the population has grown Alpha Zaius: time == money Marcos Fonzarelli: yes Anshe Chung: There is some land developing actually going on. Look at Janus hub :-) You: schwanson: definitely Robin Linden: and another thing that cut into land availability was holding these sims open Alpha Zaius: so maybe: You: split 50% of the profits? :P Robin Linden: we held out something like 6 - 8 snow sims for no development Alpha Zaius: meters of land * average Dwell * time since purchase His Grace: Schwanson, Lisse Livingston tried it and gave up. Wrist Scanner: All Go James Miller: Honestly, without knowing exact population growth numbers, it's really hard to see if the population increases are the cause of the prices going up. Robin Linden: hi Crowcatcher Alpha Zaius: (time since perchace in weeks) James Miller: For us, anyway. CrowCatcher Valen: Thank you Grim CrowCatcher Valen: Hello All Grim Lupis: yw You: howdy crow James Miller: hi, Crow. Grim Lupis: I figured since we had someone leave..... His Grace: not cool CrowCatcher Valen: yes. is there actuallt another seat or no? Robin Linden: ah ha -- please don't bring more in though Robin Linden: no more seats, but the snow is OH so cozy Schwanson Schlegel: lol Alpha Zaius: Ill be the point of the circle, you can sit in my seat :) CrowCatcher Valen: thanks robin CrowCatcher Valen: alpha, thnak you Grim Lupis: I wouldn't bring anyone in over the limit of 12 Robin Linden: so -- the population will continue to go up Robin Linden: it seems to have levelled off since June -- still steady but not a huge accelleration like we had June 1 Alpha Zaius: so ido you have the exact numbers robin? Robin Linden: In May we put the equivalent of almost 14 sims online His Grace: Robin, you increased the land supply in July, too. What numbers/model do you have to show that more land will easy the land prices problem? Alpha Zaius: official I ment You: of course she does... she's 2nd in command. :P Robin Linden: June = 13.4 Robin Linden: July = 20.6 Grim Lupis: SL is getting more press more regularly now, though. Robin Linden: August = 40 Alpha Zaius: a day? James Miller: I don't think that the number of people subscribing going up + the number of sims being added can affect the land prices that much...you have to remember that these people who buy land and turn around and sell it really do affect the prices. You: 40 sims in august? thus far? Alpha Zaius: or per month? Robin Linden: no - for the month Alpha Alpha Zaius: oh I thought that was new people lol Robin Linden: by the end of August Lordfly You: that would rock if we got 40 sims a day... Robin Linden: nope James Miller: Yes, it would. Robin Linden: sorry ;-) CrowCatcher Valen: lol Lordfly Digeridoo feature requests it :P Robin Linden: we'd all die in our tracks! Anshe Chung: Does that number include private sims? Robin Linden: or you'd all have to come work for us! Anshe Chung: Or only auctioned ones? You: heh, that's fine. it'll pay for college. :P Robin Linden: it doesn't include private island - just auctioned ones Schwanson Schlegel applies Grim Lupis has considered applying for a job, but doesn't want to move to California His Grace: How many people have been joining over that time Robin? James Miller: I really think there needs to be a time limit between purchasing land and being able to sell it. Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: why? CrowCatcher Valen: Good Idea James CrowCatcher Valen: To help stabalize the market James Miller: Because the #1 cause of high land prices is people buying at low, low prices and turning around and selling at very high prices. Grim Lupis: The minimum holding time is probably the one I have the least problem with of the ones I've heard so far Robin Linden: sorry - phone Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: IF I buy land... I should be able to do whatever I want with it.... IMMEDIATELY.. including sell part to a friend Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: or not James Miller: No, you shouldn't. Robin Linden: His Grace - the rate has been steady. can't get into actual numbers Grim Lupis: but, it has the potential to have the opposite effect of what we intend James Miller: At least, not in my opinion. Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: my opinion.. yes I should. period Robin Linden: it doubled on a per day basis in June and has stayed steady since then CrowCatcher Valen: yes, but there needs to be some sort of regulation in place in ordfer to prevent high prices. Wishbash Broom: that actually is a good idea, since if you really want the land for the land itself, you should need to keep it for a time. That way profitmakers wouldn't be sure to make a profit from buying land :) James Miller: Exactly. James Miller: They'd be able to make a profit, but, they'd put more THOUGHT into each purchase. Robin Linden: what would you expect the wait would achieve? Alpha Zaius: lets face it: I know people in this group (wont give out names) they buy land, and then immediatly sell it Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: I don't care if other make profits... whether in land sales or product sales Schwanson Schlegel: what if LL where to release 10 new sims, auction them all on the same day? You: yeah, eprhaps it would be a good incentive to develop the land Alpha Zaius: usually at a higher price Robin Linden: make it less attractive to buy in the first place? His Grace: Robin, if the rate has been steady, and the land released increased in july, and the prices still went up. Does the curve show that doubling the amount of land will cause prices to come down? You: robin: yes Grim Lupis: Well, I can think of one exception to the holding time that would make it not so good You: it prevents profit whoring just for profit's sake Alpha Zaius: so if they increase it by 500 dollars after they buy it James Miller: Robin, I expect it would cut down on the people buying land and turning around to sell it in 30 minutes. Alpha Zaius: then a 1k plot would go up to 5k in no time Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: if I want to buy land.. I have two (or more choices).. inclduing going to GOM/IGE or selling products for $L Grim Lupis: I've bought land for someone before because I was willing to CC it, and they paid me in L$ at GOM rates Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: or just saving... good old saving CrowCatcher Valen: WHAT GRIM Schwanson Schlegel: also, more whole sims offered for auction would ease the abuse James Miller: Purchasing land should be a big decision -- liking buying a house IRL. James Miller: You don't buy a home IRL like you do a pair of shoes. Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: I totaly disagree James.. Alpha Zaius: lol schwanson Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: land is land.. so what Schwanson Schlegel: fill the "barrons" tiers w/ whole sims His Grace: James, introducing barriers like you are talking about will not affects people with deep pockets. not in the long term. Robin Linden: that's one possibility. admit there's a wholesale market and sell a combination of very large plots and the LFTLL plots James Miller: I know, His, but, it's worth a shot. Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: this is NOT RL.. this is a virtual world... land is virtual... CrowCatcher Valen: it's not the deep pockets that are the problem his Grim Lupis: Crow: I bought auction land on my CC for a friend that didn't have enough credit on their card, and they paid me in L$ His Grace: james, it hurts more people than helps mitigate land prices. Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: you want to play... there is a "payment" to be made... You: plen: but this land holds VALUE for some people Schwanson Schlegel: thats where I make the best profit, offer the lowest prices, and stay away from the smaller auctions a while Alpha Zaius: when I was in beta under Geeky Skidoo, there where lots of public land, wasnt there beta folks? Alpha Zaius: lots of it James Miller: Land is a big feature that SL has. People are coming in, looking at the auctions and walking away in shock. "People are spending HOW MUCH for virtual land??" Wishbash Broom: good example is a patch of 2500m I was considering... went for L$18000 which is according to the land prices cheap ( "bad neigbours" ) - within an hour of selling, it had been split up into 5 patches at varying prices of L$5000 to L$ 12000 and it's all You: alpha: there was all the way up to 1.2 Robin Linden: there was an entirely different economic model then Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: value is an artifical construct... if I decide the value here is too rich for me.. I'll go elsewhere CrowCatcher Valen: yes there was Wishbash Broom: sold now, less than a week later Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: right now.. it is what it is Alpha Zaius: but then, the highest amount someone had was 100k Alpha Zaius: lol You: pleni: hence the problem... if SL becomes too "expensive" for Joe Average Player, then SL goes under Robin Linden: the highest amount of L$? His Grace: Robin, admitting there's a wholesale market would help define the problem better. Alpha Zaius: that I met Alpha Zaius: lol Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: it won't go under if a few people leave.. it will if all leave... Schwanson Schlegel: I really beleive alot of larger parcel auctions would ease the barron pressure Robin Linden: should we think about making the L4LL parcels larger? CrowCatcher Valen: thats the promblem exactly plen, for many people, it's becoming to high for then, and it will eventually drive away people who cant afford it James Miller: Does anyone remember Lenin's slogan during the revolution? James Miller: (I think it was Lenin..) Robin Linden: religion is the opiate of the masses? Schwanson Schlegel: 1024 max for lftll Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: when people begin to leave.. prices will adjust.. self-regulating system of supply/demand economics James Miller: Peace, Bread, Land. You: robin: offer staggered plots You: 512, 1024, 2048, whatever You: BUT CrowCatcher Valen: not true You: make them non-transferrable for 2 months or something Schwanson Schlegel: nooooo Grim Lupis: Plen, according to the stats we got last week, the average SLer is holding roughly L$1000 Schwanson Schlegel: bad idea LF You: why? You: if you want land, you should get it, and then keep it Robin Linden: I'm just not convinced that forcing people to hold land is the solution Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: Grim.. your point? Schwanson Schlegel: locks people into a plot they may not want to keep that long Grim Lupis: That means most likely that a majority of people can't afford land You: make it a commitment rather than a profit motive Wishbash Broom: Robin: L4LL doesn't suffer from size, it suffers from too few prims per patch James Miller: Exactly, LF. Grim Lupis: we're not talking about a few people leaving out of frustration, we're talking about a potential mass exodus Robin Linden: hmmm - that's interesting Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: well, if they want it.. then L4LL.. or GOM/IGE.. or MAKE and sell somtehing Wishbash Broom: Robin: only reason for me to buy MORE land than the L4LL program offered was to get more prim space You: yeah, but not everyone wants to use Paypal for monopoly money, plen Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: I agree with Wish His Grace: Robin, the land pricing control in a few hands will not be solved until there is much more land than those few people can afford to purchase among themselves to manipulate land prices. Robin Linden: so here's another thing to consider about pricing CrowCatcher Valen: not for a long while robin, but it will slow the economic turnover down enough for people to be able to afford. same as real estate in RL...buying a hud home, fixing it up and turning it over drives the area up in vlaue as well as the price of homes You: that's another good point, His Robin Linden: listen a sec, for this is kind of amazing... Grim Lupis: Yes, I think Wish has hit the nail on the head Alpha Zaius: SHHH Robin Linden: we've seen an increase in real GDP Lordfly Digeridoo is only sorta aware of what GDP is CrowCatcher Valen: heh heh You: wait.. gross domestic product... You: how much SL makes? Robin Linden: as measured by transactions and dollars spent per user per month Alpha Zaius: gross domestic product You: there's nowhere to export goods to... i'm confused. :) Robin Linden: in other words, the content itself is becoming more valuable CrowCatcher Valen: we;ve had to spend more Robin Linden: prices are reflecting that His Grace: robin, how much of that is gom, ige, and land purchases by percentage? You: so "stuff" in SL is becoming more valuable? CrowCatcher Valen: we're being forced to by "barons" hate that term You: how much more valuable, on average? Robin Linden: ie people are making cooler stuff and driving up the value of the currency Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: IF I could load a 512 plot with 1k of prims.. then I would never buy more land than 512 You: pleni: right, but that's a problem itself. :) James Miller: Okay, but, what's that got to do with the problems that land currently has? Alpha Zaius: oooh! IDEA THANKS! :D Grim Lupis: The reason land is so valuable to so many is because of the way prims are tied to the land Robin Linden: His Grace -- I don't know the answer to that CrowCatcher Valen: the vfalue of the currency is being driven up by land and land alone, not product Schwanson Schlegel agrees with crow His Grace: Robin, then GDP numbers don't mean anything. Anshe Chung: Value of economy goes up means value of land goes up too Robin Linden: because it takes more L$ to buy things and they're becoming more valuable Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: well.. that is the problem...... prims tied to land... there are a few people who actually want big - large builds.. I prefer detailed builds Robin Linden: so pricing is increased Anshe Chung: More value produced on same piece of land than 4 months before :-) You: pleni: we did that before version 1.2... it didn't work Alpha Zaius: since alot of land now, is used as prim allocation land, what if we change something with the prim allocation? You: alpha: like? His Grace: GDP only means something in relation to various sectors of the economy. Alpha Zaius: since the land and prim allocation, public land is almost impossible CrowCatcher Valen: right, but it's also making in almost impossible for newer players to get established,, which will lower the turnover rate Robin Linden: alpha - we hold about 15-20% of each sim, so use that prim allocation Robin Linden: it allows us to put in some infrastructure Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: I am an alt.. I wil lconfess.. but having had to go to the lots of land to do something route.. .I gotta say... I would have preferrred to just be able to "buy the prim allowance" Grim Lupis: Instead of a flat scale, have a sliding scale Wishbash Broom: For example, when I got my L4LL plot, I started building, gardening, and then I wanted to decorate... No Go. I couldn't even finish the stairs to my cabin... measly 170 prims.. Schwanson Schlegel: wishbash, why not sell that plot and buy a bigger one? Alpha Zaius: ^^^^ James Miller: Honestly, I still think the biggest cause of prices going for land is these "land barons". Grim Lupis: Because he can't afford a bigger one, I'd guess Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: now I am stuck with nearly 7k worth of land I can't seem to sell except at a huge loss Robin Linden: how is that? His Grace: Schwanson, not everyone can afford to tier up CrowCatcher Valen: yes Schwanson Schlegel: thats a risk in a free market economy Wishbash Broom: Schwanson: that's wat I did, but I wouldn't have had to if I had a decent number of prims on my land James Miller: Pleni, that's EXACTLY why there need to be restrictions in place -- you should have thought more carefully about making those land purchases before you did so. Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: I thought carefully.. and was willing to pay the price.. no one forced me CrowCatcher Valen: but many new players want to play, and buy immediately, they dont know to wait Robin Linden: Pleni -- have prices come down since you bought the land? Alpha Zaius: robin: could we possibly use the linden land free prim allocation and put that into the sims allocation James Miller: You were just saying a few minutes ago that "land is land" Grim Lupis: I think if the "land barons" weren't around, there'd still be an explosion in land pricing, it would just be more than 10-15 people doing it Schwanson Schlegel: simulators are restricted to a certain # of prims Alpha Zaius: so if a sim holds 20% linden land Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: nope.. prices are essentially about 500 more per 512m2 Robin Linden: there's way more than 10-15 people buying land at auctions each month You: grim: actually, that would allow for a more liquid market You: robin: but the same 10-15 people are bidding on EVERY auction Alpha Zaius: exactly! James Miller: Robin, it's not even just the auctions. It's these networks that go across the world and monitor when land is released. You: they're artificially increasing the prices Robin Linden: there have been about 50 - 70 unique buyers each week Schwanson Schlegel: artificially? His Grace: robin, but the top 10 people purchase 60% of the auctions Robin Linden: sometimes fewer, sometimes more You: there is decreased dynamicitiy in the economy because a dozen or so people hold the key to the land, as it were Wishbash Broom: Robin: how about all the land that's Linden land under sea ? Why not allocate those prim allocations to the rest of the land in the sim ? CrowCatcher Valen: I completely agree LF James Miller: "unique" -- how do you determine that? It's quite obvious that different names != unique. Robin Linden: that might be -- i haven't worked it out on a purchase per person basis Robin Linden: wishbash -- i'm not sure if we can do that but will check Robin Linden: James - are you saying that it isn't unique -- that it's alts? Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: I have to say that I can.. as others can.. hold the land until other land rises in cost so that I won't lose out and my land will eventually sell for what I paid for it...because it will be the cheapest around James Miller: Exactly, Robin. His Grace: Robin, and James' point about names != unique is worth nothing. You: alts aren't the problem Marcos Fonzarelli: gotta go Alpha Zaius: yes: I noticed problems with alts Robin Linden: I agree Lordfly James Miller: Oh, I think Alts are a big problem in this whole thing. You: if marcos is leaving... can i invite someone? :) Wishbash Broom: Still, for new players, more prims on their initial patch is way more important than more land Schwanson Schlegel: the peopel that can't afford to pay RL tier fees, should develop a inworld business to help afford tier fees His Grace: worth noting (not nothing ;) oi!) Robin Linden: If they don't mind sitting in the snow Schwanson Schlegel: lol James Miller: Okay, I have an idea..."Land for the Trialmembers." That's right, give a free 512m2 plot for their first 7 days. CrowCatcher Valen: hmmm Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: and then? CrowCatcher Valen: then what Schwanson Schlegel: I don't think that would help much, james James Miller: After the first 7 days, all the land in that sim is given back to LL. Alpha Zaius: maybe limit alts to about 3 His Grace: Schwanson, not everyone is able to do that. Alpha Zaius: alts per credit card You: james: why not just use the sandbox? Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: which would accomplish what? James Miller: and then, re-plotted and reauctioned. CrowCatcher Valen: what for james James Miller: Because, there's a difference between Using a sandbox and Owning Land. You: not for a newbie Robin Linden: alts are currently limited to 5/cc James Miller: Let the trial members see what the big fuss is about. Anshe Chung: I think alts should be removed from land auctions. Only one name per CC CrowCatcher Valen: true LF Alpha Zaius: oh Alpha Zaius: :P Schwanson Schlegel: "owning" land thats given back in a week? You: robin: maybe decrease that to three or something His Grace has lotsa cc's Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: when I got my L4LL land.. my first thought after a small build was.. wtf? not enuf prims per 512?!?!? James Miller: It's a trial of land. They get to trial everythinge else. Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: I almost left Grim Lupis: How about a sliding scale of prims? Say, 512m gets the prim allotment that a 1024 has now. Each "tiered" increase of land in a sim nets you progressively fewer prims/m You: ew CrowCatcher Valen: haha Schwanson Schlegel: NOOOO Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: no CrowCatcher Valen: bad idea Alpha Zaius: maybe we can increase server stabilility Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: no Grim no Schwanson Schlegel: that is penalizing the larger tier holders CrowCatcher Valen: we'd all teir donw and buy little plots His Grace: Grim, ugh! CrowCatcher Valen: haha You: so it'd be better to have 32 16 meter plots in 32 sims then one big plot in one sim? His Grace nods at Crowcatcher Robin Linden: it's certainly a goal to be able to increase overall prim allocations/sim Robin Linden: they're already 50% higher than they used to be You: hmm You: maybe we need more double prim sims Robin Linden: like the cities? Schwanson Schlegel: thats a technological issue, and I think they are too high already You: yes, like the cities Robin Linden: no one every goes there James Miller: I think that if trial members got to see what the big fuss over land was, they might not feel pressured into paying crazy prices that Land Barons have set when they're paying members. You: robin: that's us city dweller's fault Robin Linden: *ever. it's too laggy Anshe Chung: I did well on 1000 sqm for months, even have shop and do business You: it's laggy because of scripts You: i reckon there's still only about 15k prims in the city sims Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: well, as a relative newbie... prim per meter limts seem to be driving the land prices.. not land barons..I could be wrong of course James Miller: Not as laggy as Lindenberg :) Schwanson Schlegel: lol Robin Linden: hehe Robin Linden: i remember that! Alpha Zaius: oh wow! does this sim use dual processors Lordfly Digeridoo missed lindenberg Schwanson Schlegel likes that cheese best CrowCatcher Valen: not it's not the prims..it's the select few who are buying up land and markiung it up Alpha Zaius: or does all sims do that James Miller: Lindenburg (or berg?) was crazy...it was half a sim, but, crazy lag. You: why so laggy? CrowCatcher Valen: it's completely emulates an RL economic model, really James Miller: Wel, it was version 0.3.0 :P Grim Lupis: I agree with Plen. I think it's the prims, not the land, that makes land valuable to most people (not all) You: robin: i think perhaps the reason most people don't go to the city sims are multiple problems You: you should put some double-prim sims in the middle of the grid CrowCatcher Valen: or plots Alpha Zaius: James: I remember when you ahve that monorail You: like, auction off some small islands with double prim allotment CrowCatcher Valen: double primmed plots in the middle of the sim Alpha Zaius: and I triggered the security system :P Wishbash Broom: CrowCatcher: and one of the reasons they are able to sell their land is precisely because new users want more prims than their land has to offer, and thus buy bigger land... Alpha Zaius: ok * back to subject James Miller: Yep! I still have that monorail somewhere in my inventory.. CrowCatcher Valen: but many cant wish Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: now a double prim sim/plot has more value.. everyone agree? James Miller: Is anyone actually buying their land? You: to some, yes Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: and for others.. a waterfront view, or snow... right? You: to me, double prim sims freaking rock CrowCatcher Valen: depends, possibly Schwanson Schlegel: another solution to help newbs w/ land, perhaps have some sims that are dedicated for peopel who are not able to resell Robin Linden: sounds like we need a market in prim allocations Alpha Zaius: yes Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: but two hillsides that adjoin..same same to most people You: a market? Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: no extra value Alpha Zaius: OH IDEA You: bid for prim allocation? Alpha Zaius: LISTEN PLEASE! James Miller: How can you sell something that is capped like that? Robin Linden: yeah -- i haven't used up my prim limit on my land, so I sell you the extra allotment Alpha Zaius: Ming Chen is my roomate: gave me this idea --\ You: hmmmmm Schwanson Schlegel: HI ming! You: that is a good idea, but it has problems Alpha Zaius: How bout we have sims Schwanson Schlegel: **waves** His Grace: Robin, a prim allocation market? eeek! Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: I liek that idea Robin Robin Linden waves at Ming Chen Alpha Zaius: that selling is NOT allowed You: what if the person allocating the prims leaves? Alpha Zaius: lol Alpha Zaius: it must be released Anshe Chung: Yes, good idea. Prim trade market might increase resource efficiency :-) You: so that's a problem! CrowCatcher Valen: not a bad idea, really. His Grace: Robin, that would create a new layer of speculation You: say someone buys 5k worth of prims from someone Alpha Zaius: so that way Robin Linden: it certainly would! You: if someone makes a HUGE building from someone's allocation... Schwanson Schlegel: wOOt Alpha Zaius: there is NO worries about land costs You: and then the person LEAVES His Grace: not to mention it would make the purchase more complicated for new players. Alpha Zaius: then the sim is released James Miller: Oh, yes! Let's sell prim allotment now, too! While we're at it, let's have the Lindens sell L$ directly to the public!! You: suddenly the land doesn't exist, and then neither does the 5,000 prim building Alpha Zaius: plot CrowCatcher Valen: but in that case...wouldnt the people who own the land, still be doing the same thing they are doing now to drive up prices? Robin Linden: James you sound sarcastic. James Miller: Yeah. James Miller: That's sarcasam. Robin Linden: we're dealing with a real deflation problem here Grim Lupis: If it actually lowered land prices, it would be an even bigger problem, as land would change hands more frequently Schwanson Schlegel loves James CrowCatcher Valen: haha Anshe Chung: The monthly fees need to be connected to the number of prims used though CrowCatcher Valen: land robin You: quadruple dwell payouts then His Grace: "Hello. Here's some land, but it has no prim allocation because I sold it to someone else." You: or triple stipends or something James Miller: I think we're dealing with a real greed problem here -- one that won't be acknowledged by the greedy. CrowCatcher Valen: minumun time for resale Robin Linden: one way to respond is to start selling L$ into the economy. Not saying we would, but it is one solution. Alpha Zaius: lol You: no, don't do that You: ever CrowCatcher Valen: I completely agree james You: EVER. :) Schwanson Schlegel: James, if I quit today, there will be 10 here tommorow to fill my shoes Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: I am not greedy.. and I don't care about others' greed.. if I value something.. I decide how valuable it is.. for me.. not for someone else Robin Linden: the problem James is that people ask these prices and someone is ready to pay CrowCatcher Valen: not ture schwan, your justifying your behavior James Miller: Yes, there would -- that needs to be stopped. Robin Linden: if they weren't the prices would come down Grim Lupis: Robin: please, no. I think it's best to leave that to 3rd party markets CrowCatcher Valen: if there would be 10 more they would already be here You: robin: maybe we just need more land barons? Grim Lupis: Otherwise you'll start hearing the "just like There" tirades Alpha Zaius: if we can open new sims (like bunches) that have aka. "No Sell Sims" and when they release: lindens will ony announce the new sims to newer players.. Robin Linden pats Grim on the back. don't worry. You: maybe fund some land barony, get the prices more competitive His Grace: James, "greed" is part of a capitalist market. You'd have to restruct the market entirely to address that kind of issues. James Miller: Is anyone actually paying? I just see people complaining on the forums about it -- I don't see anyone actually buying this land at these prices and using the land. Alpha Zaius: but you can only hold a max of 2048 per sim You: james: people do buy the land. in droves Schwanson Schlegel: They buy my land, as I do not rape the peopel, James Miller: I was flying around the newest sims today -- the ones with the nice pyramid -- and all I saw was spinning for sale sign after for sale sign. CrowCatcher Valen: it's all over the forums...in newbies posts asking for land....and being dead serious...if thats not a sign, what is? Schwanson Schlegel: I tun ALOT of land Robin Linden: James there are far more p2p transactions for land than anything we do in the auctions You: schwanson: if you don't mind me asking, what's your average plot price per sq. meter? Schwanson Schlegel: in the snow sims mature, Schwanson Schlegel: 14 per meter to 16 You: yeah, robin, you gotta look at the new sims... Anshe Chung: I don't have real numbers, but since I joined land trade I think profit margin of land trade decreased steadily You: you guys release the sims via auction and then they're just for sale again Schwanson Schlegel: and I paid 12-14 James Miller: I don't think that adding new sims will help -- the land barons will just buy up all that land and sell at the same prices. You: there's a terrible middleman problem Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: see.. my land fr aale.. nnot in snow sim. but in mature.. is set to sel at around 10.6... eventually it will sell You: the only way to short circuit land barony is to release SO much land that they can't keep up with volume Grim Lupis: Anshe, I think that's because more and more people are jumping into the auctions to try to obtain land "wholesale" You: which would require like 300 sims a month or something CrowCatcher Valen: haha CrowCatcher Valen: that'd be something alright James Miller: Okay, here's another idea that I wanna throw out. You: robin's dead! Alpha Zaius: uggh Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: saw that Alpha Zaius: WHAT HAPPEND James Miller: *sigh* Anshe Chung: Right Grim. Competition is cutting margins Schwanson Schlegel: Like I said, release a few sims at once for sale, you will fill resellers tiers, allowing on demand customers to but from our sims, allowing bargain hunters to pick the auctions Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: wb robin You: hi robin. did you bug report it? :) CrowCatcher Valen: wb robin Alpha Zaius: oK: heres me and MINGS idea in one chat! Relesae No Sell sims. all those sims cannot be sold, so if they need to get rid of it: then release it.. People can only be entitiled to 2048 Robin Linden: thanks - sorry about that! James Miller: Okay, anyway, as I was saying -- I have an idea I wanna share. Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: I don't like that idea at all Anshe Robin Linden: omg just lost the whole chat log Alpha Zaius: I have it Schwanson Schlegel: You: Like I said, release a few sims at once for sale, you will fill resellers tiers, allowing on demand customers to but from our sims, allowing bargain hunters to pick the auctions Schwanson Schlegel: LOL You: i have it too Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: sorry.. Alpha Grim Lupis: 2048 isn't enough for some because of prim limits. Grim Lupis: I own two plots in two separate sims. The smaller one is nearly 4k James Miller: Eh, nah, my idea is too radical. nvm. CrowCatcher Valen: haha Robin Linden: so Schwanson -- if we grew the wholesale market, sold much larger plots at auction, but fewer plots, and basically let the 'real estate' market take over Anshe Chung: Schwanson, if you release many sims you only raise the stakes. And you might trigger land market crash. James Miller: I was gonna say that no one should be allowed to sell land, and that land should be given to people by the Lindens...too crazy. Robin Linden: you think prices would level off? You: ooooooh idea! idea! Wishbash Broom: robin: want a cutnpaste of the log ? Lordfly Digeridoo waves his arms around CrowCatcher Valen: omg, you cant be serious James Miller: Never, Robin. I think that greed will just keep on driving them up. You: WHAT IF! You: okay, let's say we have a Sim. CrowCatcher Valen: he'll gobble it up, and mark it up Alpha Zaius: wow You: no one will own the land in the sim. You: instead, folks bid for a prim allotment, but they can build anywhere in the sim Robin Linden: thanks! CrowCatcher Valen: thats what the SL realestate market does Grim Lupis has had an epiphany Wishbash Broom: hmm... doesn't work on mac :( You: they can use up to their prim allotment You: but build anywhere in that Sim CrowCatcher Valen: haha, thats Anarchy Lf You: crowcatcher: but it'd be fun You: i imagine great public works projects. :) Alpha Zaius: how bout we just make a 6 sim sandbox? James Miller: uh...LF...that'll create even more crazyness...WHERE in the sim do they build? You: everywhere or nowhere Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: Lordfly.. how do you deal with two people deciding they both want to build in the same spot? Alpha Zaius: lol CrowCatcher Valen: would be funny Robin Linden: ok -- we're losing it here. James Miller: people will be building on each other's areas. You: pleni: the same that's done in the sandbox Robin Linden: let's focus on LF's idea for the moment CrowCatcher Valen: he was kidding plen Anshe Chung: Whatever you do about land need keep in mind the thousands of people who bought land at high price the last two months You: i was kidding? Oberon Caldera: LF: can that be sort of done now with group purchases? CrowCatcher Valen: he wasnt kidding? James Miller: Point and laugh? CrowCatcher Valen: lol Alpha Zaius: lol Alpha Zaius: ? His Grace: Robing, making the auction entirely wholesale will allow the land speculators for form a formal or informal cartel to control land prices even more easily. Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: I think location is a real isue.. with LF's idea Robin Linden: got the log! thanks guys. CrowCatcher Valen: I was building here first...no I was building here first. You: it would eliminate land barony, for one thing Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: I purchased land where I did because I wanted it where it was You: pleni: there's a game called A Tale in the Desert that has that problem Schwanson Schlegel: to expect that a new player, with no viable income fom SL, and no means to afford RL fees, is entitled to a 4096 plot because they just want it is, silly You: but, it's not really a problem Robin Linden: possibly, except that LL would still be responsible for controlling the initial supply James Miller: I want to know...why are we all here? What land-related problems are plauging us today? You: people tend to cooperate Anshe Chung: I think there are at least 20 active land traders and some really dislike each other. So I don't see cartel Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: so.. simply selling prim allocations without associated land has probs.. you need both land sales AND prim sales Schwanson Schlegel becomes prim barron Grim Lupis: I have a thought, based on some trends I've seen James Miller: If we can make a simple list of the problems, that may help us. CrowCatcher Valen: haha Lordfly Digeridoo thinks that no one likes my idea. :) Schwanson Schlegel: lol Lordfly Digeridoo promises doom James Miller: I think it has potential. Schwanson Schlegel: I am all ears Oberon Caldera: Sounds good to me! You: it should be done experimentally first, of course You: like with Olive His Grace: Robin, LL's track record wrt to land supply is a good reason to be afraid of wholesale market. CrowCatcher Valen: well, schwanson honesty is nice. he's being straight forward...how would it change things? instead of the problem being in land...it would be in prims You: how, though? James Miller: Well, okay, my reason for being here is that land prices are not low enough for the common user to purchase land. A lot of people want land. Most, I would think. However, most CAN'T get land -- it's not cheap enough. These people need to be accomidat You: you'd just pay for prims you didn't use James Miller: accomidated* Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: why am I here? because I don't really see a problem with land myself.. other than low prim allocations per m2.. but others are really complaining.... and I wanted h to hear the args Grim Lupis: Sell more parcels that are 1024 or smaller. Sell more volume of land for L$ instead of US$. Put the L$ from land sales into the dwell pool automatically, on a daily or weekly basis CrowCatcher Valen: barons buy up the prims and resell them You: you can't sell more land for $L... there's a dwindling supply of lindens CrowCatcher Valen: i agree james You: and that's driving up land prices Alpha Zaius: Im just wondering, are there any other problems then with land prices? You: yeah, the devaluation of the linden dollar James Miller: yes -- land is too soily You: er, the deflation Wishbash Broom: Why not create sims with higher prim counts per 512 or 1k m2, not allowing people to join or split land in those sims, and alott that to new users ? Robin Linden: OK - trying to catch up here. His Grace -- our record with land supply? Schwanson Schlegel: I am wondering if LL sees a problem with current prices, other than some complaining on the forums? His Grace: Robin, how about this? Find out what the mean landholding for the middle two quartiles of land owners is and making that the new plot size of L4LL? James Miller: Why would LL see a problem? They see revenue. You: what if all the linden dollars coming in from the auctions get diverted over to the dwell pot for a period of time? Grim Lupis: If the L$ are recycled directly back into the economy, it offsets the devaluation James Miller: That's another big problem...why would the Lindens want to change anything? It means a loss of revenue. You: james: not true You: there are people leaving because of this Anshe Chung: To say something unpopular now: I think this is a lot of the haves versus the have-nots :-( Robin Linden: ooh James that's a low blow. His Grace: James, not true. CrowCatcher Valen: players not staying = loss of revenue Robin Linden: it really isn't all about money You: there are people not playing SL because of the land problem CrowCatcher Valen: they dont stay cause they cant afford to play James Miller: Well, I'm on the verge of that. Schwanson Schlegel: eventual loss of customers would outweight a few bucks on initial sale Robin Linden: my question to you is this -- the perception is that land prices are too high Schwanson Schlegel: for land barrons as well Robin Linden: land prices are driven largely by supply and demand James Miller: I wasn't even that angry when I got here, but this meeting has really made me re-think my participation here. Robin Linden: we're doubling supply, but population is growing really fast Robin Linden: hopefully we'll get a little ahead Robin Linden: the problem is exacerbated by deflation James Miller: I really don't know if population is growing really fast -- I have no proof. You: i suppose the easiest thing to do is just flood the market James Miller: I still see, generally, the same faces around the world. Robin Linden: caused by a rip-roaringly fast growing GDP Anshe Chung: In every game i saw people complain because something was too difficult or something they could not get :-( His Grace: Robin, LL tried to release more land to easy prices and failed (re: record land supply) James Miller: How do you know that all this new population aren't just alts? You: robin: I don't suppose we could get more economic data released? Robin Linden: trust me, i know Schwanson Schlegel: LOL Schwanson Schlegel: i trust Robin James Miller: >.< CrowCatcher Valen: shes got no reason to say otherwise James Miller: I should just believe your word? Robin Linden: i just spent a month bringing everyone down to a max 5 accounts/cc Schwanson Schlegel: yesd His Grace: James, yes. You: james: why not? you have for two years... James Miller: Yeah, and for most of those two years, everything was going okay.. Oberon Caldera: Is the distribution of wealth/land ownship changing (recently?) You: SL is still going okay CrowCatcher Valen: maybe he only started listening to her in the last month You: the whole point of this meeting is to keep it from going crappy CrowCatcher Valen: it's getting crappy Robin Linden: concurrency rates have doubled You: concurrency rates? James Miller: No, not to me. This community used to be filled with creative, artistic people. Now it's filled with illiterate people who are here to make a quick buck! Robin Linden: you must just be hanging around with all your old best friends CrowCatcher Valen: we cant afford to play, unless we spend high dollar Schwanson Schlegel: define concurrency? You: what's a concurrency rate? You: crowcatcher: it depends on what you want to do, honesty You: if you just want to socialize, a ten dollar account gets you really far Robin Linden: the number of people online at the same time. concurrent. CrowCatcher Valen: very true. and it's limtiing to those who want to create You: if you want to build things, even that doesn't cost too much You: robin: how many folks are online at peak time nowadays, anyway? James Miller: We should be able to see exactly how many online at any given time. James Miller: That shouldn't be hidden. His Grace: robin, are you allowed to release the concurrency rate? CrowCatcher Valen: good idea james James Miller: There needs to be a webpage, like Www.secondlife.com/stats You: i agree with james... i want total transparency of worldwide data. :) Robin Linden: we're going to have to wrap up in a few minutes. I'll summarize the log and send it around to you all to make sure I captured your ideas accurately His Grace: Robin, how about this? Find out what the mean landholding for the middle two quartiles of land owners is and making that the new plot size of L4LL? CrowCatcher Valen: I third the motion You: transparency of worldwide data! Wishbash Broom: In the less than three weeks I have played, I have already spent over US$100, plus recurring fees that I was unwilling to spend in the first place, only to better get the feeling of SL. My friends however are unwilling to join because of what they have Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: I have noticed lots of people using the public sandboxes as stores and their personal build areas... for huge builds.. more land won't solve that problem... but it shows people adjusting to the land prices James Miller: We want Data! We want Data! Robin Linden: then we'll share with the other groups Wishbash Broom: seen... so I'm not quite sure about my participation on a full scale either... CrowCatcher Valen: wish just summed it up right there CrowCatcher Valen: people are unwilling to play Robin Linden: we have to clear some of that with the board, but it's our intention to give you as much insight into the market as you might have in a RW market You: ooh, those damn VCs :/ CrowCatcher Valen: haha His Grace nods at Wishbash and Crowcatcher's point Anshe Chung giggles You: knife fight them, robin. five bucks on you. :P You: challenge them to a duel in Jessie James Miller: Yeah, Wish just brought up another problem. People may be paying these insane prices, but, how does that look to new members. They won't be so willing to pay those prices. Robin Linden: they seem to think we might have some competition who'd be interested. Go figure! You: who's your competition anymore? You: TSO is about to tank... You: There already did... James Miller: There didn't tank. James Miller: Read their forums. You: the other MMORPG games are too dissimilar Robin Linden: I agree -- we don't want to leave new people with the sense that we're only interested in money Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: There is about to reemerge I think CrowCatcher Valen: There is stil up and running James Miller: There is alive and well. Robin Linden: or that there's nothing to do here if you're not rich in RL CrowCatcher Valen: thats what its coming to robin Schwanson Schlegel: i disagree James Miller: Well, Robin, that's what SL is giving off right now -- and that's exactly what There used to give off, and still does. You: i don't think that's true, yet You: SL is giving off the aura of "holy crap! you can make money here!" Anshe Chung: You don't have big land to be able to do something. You can play for free. Robin Linden: ok - point taken. which brings us back around to the original point of this meeting! James Miller: Yes, but, they don't KNOW that, Anshe. You: There's aura was "holy crap! things are expensive!" Wishbash Broom: Also something worth thinking about... on PC's the competition is ActiveWorlds... there subscribers get free land as they wish.. thein-game capitalism there wasn't as bleeding obvious.. CrowCatcher Valen: I'm an old beta member with a free alotment...I've had to spend 400 bucks in the past 3 weeks t help new players out...holding land for them now, and paying the minthly so they can play Grim Lupis: Anshe, that depends entirely on what you want to do, even for the longer-term residents. CrowCatcher Valen: with land Robin Linden: one thing to think about -- You: wishbash: AW doesn't have an economy James Miller: New users really need to get to try out being a land owner, for FREE, for a few days. Let them see what you can and cannot do as a land owner. Robin Linden: there's some validity to the idea that people need to get some return for the time investment they make and the content they create Schwanson Schlegel: sell it Robin Linden: it can't all just be about fun, when you have some people putting in as much time as some are You: hmm, but not EVERYONE can get a proper return Schwanson Schlegel: market it James Miller: Selling land isn't exactly creating content... Wishbash Broom: LordFly: or doesn't :) Been 2 years since I ditched my PC and got a Mac ( which AW doesn't work on... ) Schwanson Schlegel: i know some great artists in RL that are broke James Miller: Anyway, I'm gonna go watch Big Brother. Schwanson Schlegel: and a crappy one who makes 6 figures CrowCatcher Valen: it doesnt have to be about fun robin, but opportunity to new players is just and fair Robin Linden: thanks for coming James James Miller: Thanks for having me. Schwanson Schlegel: bye james Robin Linden: I agree crow Grim Lupis: bye, James James Miller: Please post the full log to the forums, if possible. I'd like to re-read it later. You: heh... it's closing time for LLabs! Robin Linden: any last points anyone wants to make? CrowCatcher Valen: see ya james Robin Linden: cya james You: robin: flood the market with Sims, give us more data, reinflate the linden dollar, and give us all a mule. :) Grim Lupis: You should shoot whoever started that whole $550/acre article Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: I want to reiterate that I think the prob is prim limit tied to land size You: by tomorrow. James Miller: and let new users try out land for free! CrowCatcher Valen: minumum turn over time for land=) Schwanson Schlegel: and a sheep ;-) Robin Linden: hehe Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: other than that.. land prices are fine CrowCatcher Valen: no they arent CrowCatcher Valen: =p Robin Linden: what about a cow? You: no, land prices are INSANE Wishbash Broom: Think hard about the prim allocations... Ask the new L4LL users CrowCatcher Valen: land prices are out of control CrowCatcher Valen: cow? Robin Linden: one more question -- what's a reasonable price? Lordfly Digeridoo counts his lucky stars that he has a Lifetime allotment Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: you guys are entitled to your opinions.. as I am to mine His Grace: Robin, thanks for holding this. Anshe Chung: Whatever you do: do it step by step and not overdo it :-) Schwanson Schlegel: WHAT THE MARKET WILL BEAR You: Robin: something that costs less than the average person's monthly allotment for entertainment You: so say, $50 for whatever an average plot of land is Schwanson Schlegel: we cannot define fair You: or something Wishbash Broom: Its only been less than a week since I got my L4LL, so my memory isn't at all blurry ;) CrowCatcher Valen: good answer LF His Grace: robin, a reasonable price is what will let people join sl and stay. Robin Linden thanks Lordfly for remembering it's supposed to be fun! Lordfly Digeridoo is all about fun. :) CrowCatcher Valen: haha Wishbash Broom: It should be You: the second it's not fun, is the second i quit. :) Grim Lupis: $50 on GOM is about 10-12k Wishbash Broom: If it isn't fun, then you can just as well take RL by its horns.. Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: I thin kthat a "Starter/basic plot should be about 250 prims.. however that works out land wise...above that.. then tiering CrowCatcher Valen: well since the introduction of RL money echange, that is impossible. it will always be with us now CrowCatcher Valen: fun and business Robin Linden: ok - everybody -- we'll post the logs, or at least a summary of all the discussions Schwanson Schlegel: ask a Beta person, a person who started in Jan, and a person who started in July what is fair, 3 different answers You: robin: i think you should poke your resident economist to see what the average gamer's monthly income for entertainment is You: and then steer land prices to be around that Robin Linden: i would if i had one. do you know a good one? Schwanson Schlegel: Thank you Robin You: i thuoght you guys had one?! CrowCatcher Valen: mine was 25 a month. I spent 400 this month and next month we're looking at 200, but I can afford it...most cant CrowCatcher Valen: thanks robin You: Ian Linden or something?! His Grace agrees with LF His Grace: thanks robin Anshe Chung predicts when land prices are 50% of todaI think if land price go down and people can afford 1000m instead of 500m then a lot of people will complain that they can't afford 2000 sqm Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: tks robin You: holy begeezus, you're just making it up as you go? Robin Linden: we do have an economist on our strategic board, but he's all about land and real estate, not gaming Grim Lupis: Thanks, Robin Schwanson Schlegel agrees with anshe CrowCatcher Valen: he needs to be fired Grim Lupis: Robin, that explains a lot, actually. :-/ CrowCatcher Valen: haha You: get an economist on board. CrowCatcher Valen: yes it reallt does grim You: Greenspan Linden. Anshe Chung: I see social competition here Grim Lupis: It certainly explains why the economy revolves around real-estate You: oh and one more thing... this Town Hall structure is way awesome Robin Linden: all kidding aside, we've had some great economic advice from Ted Castronova, Julian Dibbell, some folks down at Stanford who won Nobels Robin Linden: oooh I like that Greenspan LInden Schwanson Schlegel: LOL CrowCatcher Valen: haha Schwanson Schlegel: LOL You: hehe Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: watches for arrival of Schwanson Schlegel applies for Greenspan job Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: Robin-Greenspan Linden in next few weeks Robin Linden: I'm glad you like the TH structure. think we should do it again? regularly? CrowCatcher Valen: No! You: yes! You: all the time! You: weekly! You: :D Anshe Chung: TH? Schwanson Schlegel: AWESOME! Robin Linden: No? why not? Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: I like the meeting.. not the format Robin Linden: TH = town hall His Grace: More TH. not this 12 player limit thing. Anshe Chung: Oh, alright :-) You: you should get more lindens on for it though to let more people participate Grim Lupis: Robin, this TH format is great, unless you're one of the 10000+ that were excluded. :-/ Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: the 12 person limit is not my bag Robin Linden: there's usually about 40-50 people at the town halls CrowCatcher Valen: Not enough people included...the streaming questions and IM worked much better Schwanson Schlegel: this was the best meeting I have been to, and I go to them all Anshe Chung: I like 12 player thing. Makes it still possible discuss. More people create spam or require strict moderation CrowCatcher Valen: plus everyone could hear it You: get all the lindens online for the next one You: we need as much plurality as possible Schwanson Schlegel: they are I thought Robin Linden: we can have more groups, or we could broadcast the chat from each one You: nah, there's only phil, robin, cory, and i think haney Robin Linden: the reality is though, that we have about the same number of participants overall and everyone has a real chance to talk You: more groups... this was a good discussion CrowCatcher Valen: thats perect robin, as long as everyone can be inlcuded Schwanson Schlegel: all the important ones ;-) CrowCatcher Valen: yes it was LF You: no one died, no threats were issued, no animals were harmed... Robin Linden: well thanks for coming Schwanson Schlegel: oooo no colin? CrowCatcher Valen: haha Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: a broadcasted chat with moderated questions migh twork better for all.. this seems somewhat "privileged" groupwise.. definiely excludd more people than it included CrowCatcher Valen: thank you robin. you have great legs, BTW You: privileged? Schwanson Schlegel: first come, first serve Robin Linden: well we don't want to be exclusive Wishbash Broom: Thank you for an informative and good meeting :) Robin Linden: hehe -- thanks! CrowCatcher Valen: =) Schwanson Schlegel: TY Robin You: oooh, crow's trying to hit on robin! Anshe Chung smiles Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: tks robin CrowCatcher Valen: =) Oberon Caldera: Thanks, Robin You: DOIN IT!!! CrowCatcher Valen: thank you! Grim Lupis: Robin, if you remember the last TH, where Philip used the streaming audio, there were way more than 60 people listening Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: iem for RL food run Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: you gys take it easy CrowCatcher Valen: i agree grim You: ciao. Robin Linden: ciao everyone. CrowCatcher Valen: thanks again grim CrowCatcher Valen: bye!!!! Grim Lupis: np, Crow Wishbash Broom: bye You: cya Grim Lupis: Thanks, Robin Schwanson Schlegel: AFK Oberon Caldera: bye You: yeah, danke CrowCatcher Valen: okay, now everyone tackle schwanson and take him money Grim Lupis: Nice arguing with you all! Grim Lupis: ;) You: i suppose i should learn more scripting CrowCatcher Valen: grim can teach you LF CrowCatcher Valen: haha You: i'm teaching myself. :P CrowCatcher Valen: see you guys later=) this was fun CrowCatcher Valen: well done Grim Lupis: Oh, speaking of LF and I working on something together, I need to have a talk with you, Crow CrowCatcher Valen: sure CrowCatcher Valen: IM me Grim Lupis: I'll try to track you down later Grim Lupis: will do You: cya folks :)
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