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| - Creation Townhall: Thursday, 5/8/03 Feature Requests from Residents for Creation Toolset You = Hunter Linden IM: Jennifer Linden: Building, Scripting and Creating: Town Hall Meeting with Hunter at the Amphitheatre starting at 6PST! Put your 2 cents in for toolset improvements! IM me for a list! You shout: Okay - give me a few sentences You: Thanks to everyone for coming.... You: these townhalls are an important part of Second Life..... You: and something we're really excited to share You: i'll post a chat text in the forums so don't worry if you miss something You: we're gonna do this one like the others .... You: if you have a question You: say "question" and then i'll call on you in order You: and to make sure everyone gets a chance You: the topic we want to talk about tonight is.... You: "Building and Creating" You: What works for you, what doesn't? You: going forward - what would you like to see added? Or changed? You: I've heard about digital rights for textures being very important... You: Also, what can be done to support you guys as the world gets larger and more diverse You: James Linden will be our special guest.... You: to do the Q&A with you James Linden: Hello, all James Linden: I feel so formal, standing up here James Linden: For those who haven't met me, I'm one James Linden: of the engineers here at Linden James Linden: I have worked on various parts of the system James Linden: building/editing tools James Linden: permissions James Linden: networking James Linden: etc etc James Linden: Hunter, why don't we get started. James Linden: I'm gonna try to sit down here. You: great - ama, I believe you had a question Ama Omega: Digital Rights for scripts are very important to us scripters, as well as textures and clothings, what are the plans / timelines for that? James Linden: We've been thinking about digital rights for scripts/textures/clothing James Linden: it's high on our priority list, too James Linden: What specific things would you like to see? James Linden: One approach would be something like what we have for objects Ama Omega: Everything you could do with objects to be able to do with scripts ideally - modifiable, copyable or not James Linden: but applied to "assets" (anything that can go in the inventory) James Linden: Is there anything that should work differently? James Linden: I'll keep typing during questions, if that's ok James Miller: Maybe we can have it so you can read a script, or parts of a script, but, not save it to inventory and edit? maybe the same with textures? Ama Omega: It would be -really- nice (I'm dreaming) if there could be a 'public' section of a script so even non modifiable ones could have some parameters changed. Otherwise though yeah what objects have would be cool James Linden: Ama, we have in fact thought of that. James Linden: The engineering effort is substantial, tho Cyfin Kato: But if you can see it you can copy it James Linden: There's also some complexity about objects that James Linden: are not restricted, but contain assets that are restricted James Miller: well, you wouldn't be able to control + c it James Miller: you would have to sit there and type it out James Miller: which is a pain James Linden: We had thought about exporting certain variables. James Linden: Like, you can see "distance" and type in a number. James Linden: But I think the no-copy issue is the most important. Dave Zeeman: agreed Hiro Yamamoto: you could have a notecard or something in the inventory and have the variables in there and read from that? Cyfin Kato: I think your Avatar should be able to have scripts James Linden: Hiro that would be a good way to do it. You shout: Great - Alexis had next question.... Alexis Fairchild: With all of the talk about digital rights for textures and such... that's good for future builds of the client... but what about the stuff currently inworld? James Linden: That's a good question James Linden: There's two ways to go James Linden: Assume everything should work the way it does now (so James Linden: keep stuff yes-copy) James Linden: or assume everyone wants everything locked down (so convert everything to no-copy) James Linden: What do you think? Alexis Fairchild: James, you should never assume... you know what they say :P James Linden: Yeah, I'd favor keeping things yes-copy Alexis Fairchild: What I am referring to is like this... James Linden: and letting builders lock down stuff they want to Alexis Fairchild: I am opening up a photo studio here with pics I took in SL James Linden: yes Alexis Fairchild: Now, even with my no-modify, no copy set, someone can just hand out my pic to another person by dragging it out of inventory James Linden: yup James Linden: The idea would be to add a checkbox to inventory James Linden: items that prevented the copy step James Linden: That's what I mean by no-copy James Linden: We'd probably also have to do something special James Linden: with textures Alexis Fairchild: But that doesn't stop dragging it out of inventory and handing it to someone James Linden: Like, have the contents of the box contain a list of the textures James Linden: Ah James Linden: Yeah, that's a good point James Linden: Like, I buy a box from you, but I can give it to a friend? Alexis Fairchild: I would get 1 sale, but 50 avs could have my pic hanging in their homes James Linden: Ahhhh James Linden: But there would have to be a way to make a copy James Linden: Digital rights management implies that James Linden: we have a way to block the copying step James Linden: Like, once it goes into inventory, you can't drag out a copy James Linden: only the original James Linden: One single, unique object, moving from world to inventory to world James Linden: Which we can do James Linden: But it's work, which is why it isn't done yet. :-) James Linden: While we're taking questions, I have something I'd like folks to think about James Linden: Lots of very high resolution textures take up lots of bandwidth and James Linden: graphics speed. James Linden: Any thoughts on keeping textures a reasonable size and number? James Linden: I'll catch responses later. James Miller: I am not quite sure if this is meant for this topic, but, what will Linden be doing to have more communities You: James - please elaborate - in terms of grouping, or neighborhoods? James Miller: well, I meant more like neighborhoods James Miller: I feel the world is too....rural James Linden: We're interested in giving groups better control of group-owned stuff James Miller: and, its not always easy to get a group together, will Linden Lab be doing anything to push us in the direction James Linden: But I can't give specifics quite yet You: We'll do another townhall on governance since that's a big area You: but it's a big priority for the versions immediately after 1.0 James Miller: OH! That reminds me! Will we be able to have group owned things? Such as objects and land? instead of a person owning it, a company could James Linden: James, maybe. James Miller: OK James James Linden: Thats on my think-about plate for future versions James Linden: Next? James Miller: *Shoves a few more things onto the plate* You shout: Skeedalee.... Skeedalee Skidoo: I would like to see building tools that have shapes for cutting out places there have been many advanced items i have to used 10 objects to make and could use one object if i could cut a shape out James Linden: Ah, cutting out shapes. James Linden: Yeah. Skeedalee Skidoo: yes Skeedalee Skidoo: would save on my total objects James Linden: There's a reason we haven't done that yet. :-) James Miller: I second this! Alexis Fairchild: Good one Skee Alexis Fairchild: I third this one James Linden: Doing good boolean (and, or, plus, minus) on objects is tough James Linden: especially when you are trying to be able to download James Miller: two of the voices in my head have forthed and fifthed it James Linden: them at a reasonable rate. James Linden: Are there specific common cuts or holes that would be helpful? Like... Skeedalee Skidoo: well maybe just having more cut options then hehe James Linden: a pentagon hole or some such? Skeedalee Skidoo: yes like cut out a square or hole James Linden: Like cut for a door or window? Skeedalee Skidoo: just simple shapes would help a ton James Miller: square, hole, triangle Skeedalee Skidoo: yes James Linden: Maybe move the center of the cut around slightly? James Miller: the cuts need to be sizeable and positionable tho James Linden: Or center of the hole? Skeedalee Skidoo: that would be helpful also Catherine Omega: I have an idea on how that might work. Lyra Muse: Question.. related to topic. You: flashes back to pre-school - square peg, round hole James Miller: well, maybe not positionable James Linden: go lyra Lyra Muse: Okay. Skeedalee Skidoo: yeah square peg round hole! Skeedalee Skidoo: lol James Linden: That's a good idea. James Linden: Note that down, Hunter. Skeedalee Skidoo: well then i could build really advanced stuff alot easier James Miller: Hunter, I usually used an exacto knife and sized the hole or peg down to get the fit Lyra Muse: What would be neat is to have the ability to shift the holes position .. giving it it's own x, y or z axis.. Alexis Fairchild: Would make it easier to make windows in houses too Dionysus Starseeker: Maybe just a center and a one side, then you only need two hole spaces, easier to program Catherine Omega: I have a suggestion on this topic. Lyra Muse: Then we wouldn't have to build multiple prims to get the right height. James Linden: I think the first engineering step would be to try to move James Linden: the hole over slightly Zebulon Starseeker: Yes, having openings in Curved surfaces. Dionysus Starseeker: That would kill object rez James Linden: great suggestion guys James Linden: Is there a forum thread on this yet? Dionysus Starseeker: yep, I think so Skeedalee Skidoo: i posted once i think but was a month ago James Linden: Good James Linden: I'll look it up James Miller: Ive seen tons of them Lyra Muse: Yeah, let's revive them. You shout: Dave Zeeman - next question Dave Zeeman shouts: I've got three questions, should I ask them all at once, or take my turns? You shout: one and then we'll get back to ya Dave Zeeman shouts: Macromanagement. Putting a single script on a bunch of unlinked objects at once is impossible to do right now. Dave Zeeman shouts: This is what I really need though Dave Zeeman shouts: Being able to edit a single script that spans across multiple unlinked objects James Linden: hmm Dave Zeeman shouts: Or at least being able to distribute a single script among multiple unlinked objects James Linden: yeah, that could be useful, couldn't it Dave Zeeman: Very! Dave Zeeman: Especially for the projects I do. James Linden: You'd want to be able to just edit one James Linden: then push out the changes to all. Dave Zeeman: This could really go for any of the contents pieces, such as textures and objects, but mainly what I need the most is scripts. Dave Zeeman: Yes that would be helpful. James Linden: Are the objects near each other? Dave Zeeman: Yes. Dan Linden is offline James Linden: Near is a lot easier than far. Dave Zeeman: I know there's a similar request but I'm not bringing that one up. Dave Zeeman: I'm bringing up like, say, putting a script on an entire house. James Linden: Specifically, multiple different sims is tough James Linden: Would you be able to select all the items? Dave Zeeman: Yes you would. James Linden: Lemme note that one down. Dave Zeeman: Like shift clicking to add specific objects, or dragging the selection box across a group of objects Dave Zeeman: and dragging the script on that selection to get it to stick to all objects. James Linden: I can think of ways to do it pretty easily for stuff you have selected Dave Zeeman: James Linden: Especially if you could guarantee, like, James Linden: that the updated script had the same name as the old one James Linden: OK, operations on groups of selected objects. James Linden: Does anyone else have a strong need for this? Yes or no. James Miller: Yes Bel Muse: yes Kensuke Leviathan: Dah Lyra Muse: Yes. Catherine Omega: Yes. James Linden: I shoulda known better than to ask. Cyfin Kato: Maybe not for that, But let scripts act upon another object like llSetPos(object ID) Davada Gallant shouts: Subgames within Second Life could potentially be very interesting Davada Gallant shouts: But right now, in many potential subgames, cheating could be easy Davada Gallant shouts: Especially arena-type games Davada Gallant shouts: Since people can bring and use their inventory anywhere Davada Gallant shouts: Is there a possibility for a land flag that prevents people from creating objects, and from wearing objects or moving objects onto that land? James Linden: So, yes, there is a problem with the no-create James Linden: flag on land. It blocks create, but not moving objects onto the land. James Linden: D'oh! James Linden: So, I could tighten-up the no-create option. You: sounds painful Davada Gallant shouts: If that's something that will happen, is it possible for a no-attach flag? James Linden: Hmm. James Linden: You could use the existing "no outside scripts" flag to turn James Linden: off other scripts. Davada Gallant shouts: Well, here's a possible scenario James Linden: Blocking all attachments would limit people's dress options. Davada Gallant: Nod, it would Davada Gallant shouts: Let's say I were to create an arena battle subgame Davada Gallant shouts: People could wear armor into the game (illegally) to deflect bullets James Linden: Ah Davada Gallant shouts: Obviously, this makes the game less fair and less fun James Linden: True Davada Gallant shouts: I'd be willing to limit people's wardrobe for 15 minutes while they're playing the game :-) James Linden: I think the best approach to take it to make people who want to play James Linden: attach an object to themselves that James Linden: indicates their intent to play. James Linden: Have that object keep track of hits, score, etc. Davada Gallant shouts: That's a good idea, but it could be potentially abused James Linden: Thanks, Davada, I'll make a note of the no-attachment idea. Davada Gallant shouts: OK James Linden: That could clean things up a fair amount. You shout: catherine - you're up Catherine Omega: I think we need a "content" setting for objects, and that you move things like Phantom into it.... you could have an object that was fog, for instance, or better yet, negative space... so that you could carve a hole out of existing primitives. Catherine Omega: I think we need a "content" setting for objects, and that you move things like Phantom into it.... you could have an object that was fog, for instance, or better yet, negative space... Catherine Omega: so that you could carve a hole out of existing primitives. Catherine Omega: You could use the same method to create blocks of water, or create a null space within water, for purposes of constructing dry areas below the water line. James Linden: So, like a phantom object that "contained" fog James Linden: set the sides invisible or something James Linden: set phantom so no collisions Catherine Omega: You could also set zone permissions..... so that you could script interactions that you permitted within that region. James Linden: hmmmmmmmmmm Catherine Omega: Or set a block as "interior", so that we could have weather effects again, and not have rain coming through our ceilings. James Linden: volume based settings rather than land based Catherine Omega: Well, not rather than, in addition to. James Linden: We're actually talking now about inside/outside options for 1.1 James Linden: It could improve our performance a fair amount Catherine Omega: I think that most settings like land should be kept on x/y only.. James Linden: if we knew when we were inside a building Catherine Omega: but by having content settings, it'd be helpful.. James Linden: Yeah, I agree land stuff should be x/y Catherine Omega: Oh yeah, I hadn't thought of that. James Linden: So specifically, fog, water... James Linden: what rules would you want to change within the box? Catherine Omega: I think the most important would be negative space. James Linden: (and this is a real pain to do for anything other than boxes) Catherine Omega: A means to override object that it intersected with. James Linden: negative space = cut holes in other objects? James Linden: ah Catherine Omega: Haha, yes. I wouldn't recommend using something with other shapes than boxes. Catherine Omega: Right, so you could have an empty area underwater, for instance. James Linden: Ah Catherine Omega: or use it to cut holes in objects. James Linden: Well, making space underwater or under land James Linden: is a lot easier than holes in other objects. James Linden: Holes in other objects is tough because we have to create additional James Linden: geometry around the hole. James Linden: add vertices to the object that weren't there before Catherine Omega: Well, I realize that it wouldn't be TRUE subtraction.. James Linden: Catherine, I like the idea, but I don't know if I can promise it. :-( James Linden: I'll put it on the list, James Linden: but other stuff may have to come first. James Linden: (man, I wish we were a big enough company to implement all the good ideas!) You shout: James Miller - you're up James Miller: Alrighty James Miller: My question is about primitive sizes. Will we ever have it where objects that are really tiny cost only $1 and the largest of objects cost around $25? James Linden: In a word, no. James Miller: I dont think we should be charged $10 for the two totally different sized objects James Linden: At least on the small end. James Linden: There has to be some minimum charge because... James Miller: IRL, a small piece of wood is a LOT cheaper than a big piece Lyra Muse: Either way they add to the sim count, James.. James Linden: the transmission to other users isn't much cheaper for small James Linden: stuff than large jemaule Kothari shouts: bye guys James Linden: (same number of bytes on the wire) James Linden: It's also the same number of vertices/triangles to render James Miller: Well, why do we have to pay for that it in fake money? James Linden: We might save a little because we don't transmit James Linden: all the little objects if they're too small to see James Linden: The goal of charging for them is not to punish you. James Linden: It's to keep crazy people from filling the world James Linden: with 0.5meter plywood boxes James Linden: There's gotta be a limit somehow, and we've chosen to do it James Linden: with Linden dollars. James Miller: well, there has to be another way Dionysus Starseeker: hooray for boxes ;^p James Linden: Would you pay more for a torus than a box? James Linden: If boxes were cheaper? James Miller: Maybe James Linden: OK... James Linden: noted Ama Omega: I would. James Miller: ok ope rand: me too Catherine Omega: I wouldn't. James Linden: Charging same amount for different size stuff seems weird. James Linden: If only we could charge more for ugliness! James Miller: hah Alexis Fairchild: lol bUTTONpUSHER Jones: hehe ope rand: James Linden: integer ugly(key objectid) { } James Miller: I can name a few people who would be broke.. Alexis Fairchild: Me for one... hehe You shout: buttonpusher - you're up bUTTONpUSHER Jones: What is the timeline for Object to Object IM to be implemented? James Linden: uhhhhh You: smells james thinking James Linden: errr James Miller: he gives off an odor when he thinks? James Linden: not right now? :-p Lyra Muse: Damn, someone get a bucket! bUTTONpUSHER Jones: =p James Linden: Sorry, BP, I don't have a date. James Miller: He gave a bad answer! get the tar and feathers! James Linden: Which means it probably isn't going to make 1.0 bUTTONpUSHER Jones: ok. i'm happy listen works again for now James Linden: I'm sorry I can't be more specific than that. You shout: you're up Ope ope rand: i would like to have some control over the camera ope rand: perhaps after being granted permissions from the user like control permissions James Linden: yes James Linden: camera control ope rand: i think it would be a bad idea to let the camera fly away James Linden: What specifically would you like to do with it? Put it in a fixed location? James Linden: put two people's cameras in the same place? ope rand: but i just want to prevent a user from controlling it himself James Linden: ahhh James Linden: To what end? ope rand: and possibly control it a bit myself Ama Omega: I could use it to follow a mini car around a mini race track (that the user was controlling) ope rand: to stop cheating in some games James Linden: like puzzle games? ope rand: yeah or a card game where the player wants to see his cards in front of him James Linden: Would limiting it to a certain distance of the avatar be enough? ope rand: or just to lock the camera behind and make sure it stays there James Linden: 'cause in third person it's a few meters behind James Linden: I guess you could lock out mouselook ope rand: it doesn't go upside down either James Miller: or lock the person INTO mouselook! James Linden: ouch Lyra Muse: Yeah. Lyra Muse: But that still is harsh.. ope rand: yeah that could work too James Miller: but for some games, might be necessary James Linden: true James Miller: such as the card game idea James Linden: OK ope rand: and if the camera could go upside down. James Miller: even if you lock them in 3rd person, the avatar is still able to turn and get a glimpse of the cards James Linden: We might be able to provide some control over the camera ope rand: cool James Linden: For efficiency reasons, it might be really helpful if James Linden: more than one camera was in the same place James Linden: would help our server CPU load a lot James Linden: But that's our problem, not yours. :-) ope rand: James Linden: OK, camera controls for game cheating control You shout: dave zeeman - you're up James Linden: keeping things out of view. James Linden: Got it. Dave Zeeman: The ability to set object defaults, such as permissions, sizes, and snapped positioning. James Linden: For new objects dropped with the create tool? Dave Zeeman: Currently all new objects are created with group permissions all set to on, which isn't really what I want. Dave Zeeman: yes Dave Zeeman: also sometimes I might not want to constantly be building .5/.5/.5 sized things James Linden: True Dave Zeeman: so if we could have perhaps a button that you could push Dave Zeeman: and all current permissions/sizes could be saved as default James Linden: I usually either use duplicate or make a template in my inventory... but James Linden: setting defaults could be easier James Linden: Have you used "copy selection" in the create tool? Dave Zeeman: yep i have James Linden: Yeah, it's not enough, is it? Dave Zeeman: well.... sometimes no You shout: alexis - get ready - you're next James Linden: Show of hands.... do you think objects should be automatically created as part of owner's current group? yes or no? Dave Zeeman: no Ama Omega: no Lyra Muse: No. Tweke Underhill: no Kensuke Leviathan: no Bel Muse: NO ope rand: no bUTTONpUSHER Jones: no James Linden: I sense consensus. Hiro Yamamoto: can't make it so you can change the default behavior? Dionysus Starseeker: no Dave Zeeman: Catherine Omega: definitely not. James Linden: Hiro, yes. James Linden: But the default behavior is important too. You shout: Alexis - you're up Alexis Fairchild: With all of the new people coming into SL due to the open beta, and later with the release, we will be getting people who have no or little clue about building until they get some classes in or experimenting with it... they want to build a house... bUTTONpUSHER Jones: question James Linden: yep, they wanna build James Linden: I see it in their eyes. Dave Zeeman: lol Hiro Yamamoto: question Alexis Fairchild: Now.. until they get their skills up to par, will there be something like pre-made walls or floors that newbies can use until their building skills get better Dionysus Starseeker: bah... who needs a house James Linden: Alexis, yes! James Linden: Hunter can say something about this. James Linden: We're working on house-construction-kit objects James Linden: to make house building easier Alexis Fairchild: Something that can be customized more than the default cabin or house kits? James Linden: for newbies You: I think of it as "personalize, customize, create" Alexis Fairchild: Excellent.... thank you James Linden: Of course, ideally an enterprising resident could sell them hint hint Cyfin Kato: Question You: some folks just want to personalize You: but then they get excited and want to customize (change textures on something) You: and before you know it, they are excited to try creating Lyra Muse: Sell the newbie cabins? :P You: Right, now we're pretty good at the "create" level Alexis Fairchild: I was thinking walls with default texture Lyra Muse: Or customized ones? James Linden: There certainly is a fair gap between never-used-3D-app-before and Alexis Fairchild: So they could customize the walls to their tastes without it becoming a condo area.. lol You: but need to get better at the customize level (house in a box, "smart" objects, model kits) James Linden: make-the-house-I-dream-of James Linden: Hooray for condos! :-) Dionysus Starseeker: about a 2 month gap Dionysus Starseeker: heh You: for "personalize" we'll be doing more work on the user interface, etc to make it easier for new residents You: so it's a great point alexis You: ama - you're up next Ama Omega: Any hope of getting a Find feature added to the scripting window? James Linden: Yes. :-) ope rand: ooh plz Ama Omega: Woot. hope is good. James Linden: Drives me nuts too James Linden: Dunno when ope rand: yay! Lyra Muse: Alright! James Linden: But stuff that makes us nuts tends to get fixed Dave Zeeman: lol Ama Omega: yay! James Linden: it ain't gonna be regular-expressions and all James Linden: and it may not make the next version, but it will come Ama Omega: Thank you James Linden: (FYI, we're going to be at E3 next week showing Second Life James Linden: so we've been burning some effort preparing for the show) You: Hiro - you're up with a question Hiro Yamamoto: i am new, so i might be there, but a call to actually create an object rather then just copy it from inventory? James Linden: no, it has to come from inventory James Linden: you can load up the inventory James Linden: with lots of examples James Linden: but it has to be something you can make in the UI James Linden: But I could see James Linden: how that would be useful for James Linden: stuff like auto-building tools James Linden: For now, I would just stick with putting Hiro Yamamoto: exactly James Linden: prototype objects in the inventory. James Linden: But that's a good idea James Linden: We'll have to be really careful to verify James Linden: the parameters... don't want to create 256x256x256 meter boxes. :-) Hiro Yamamoto: lol James Linden: (that actually happened once.) You: FYI - there's a newbie event here at 7pm so we're gonna wrap up You: Cy - send me your question and we'll add it to the chat log You shout: Thanks all - i'll get the chat log up tonight or tomorrow a.m. You shout: And everything you asked for will be done by Monday, right James ;-) James Linden: uh, sure, Hunter. James Linden: heh You: gives you all a hand James Linden: If anybody's going to be in Los Angeles at E3, we're in the nVidia booth. James Linden: Thanks for all your input James Linden: You guys really make the world
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