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- Support the Show/Hide box. If the pointless arguing gets too long, just dump everything here. Werefang, Neo, please just let the issue die. I don't care who started it/trolled/provoked, whatever, just stop it.
- I'd like to reiterate one of Yuan's points - this is an issue of what rules were used, not TA's track record. It doesn't matter whether we agree with TA's rules because it was agreed that DNC rules were to be used by the MMII administrators. We can suggest a change in these DNC rules for the future, but no one seemed to have a problem with them while the tournament was ongoing.
- Really, the entire thing could have been avoided if you'd just stuck the rules you were following on the DNC page while the match was going on. I still can't figure out which rules were supposed to be followed initially, going by TA's talk page, overheard IRC conversations, and the Peanut Gallery. Most users wouldn't even be aware of the second, so how would they know what the rules were? I say there would be a fuss whichever way TA chose because no one was clear on the rules, and thus would call foulplay if the decision was one they disliked, or surprised them.
- Look, if seeing it is the issue, then hide the goddamned peanut gallery. A reminder to consider the length of the peanut gallery would help; people need to get some fucking common sense: if the discussion is getting long, move it somewhere else and stop annoying other people who aren't involved. I don't see a problem with keeping it as it is, though; it really isn't that hard to scroll past the gallery without reading it, you just stop when you see a picture. If it must be changed, show/hide it. NB is right: deal with it.
- I have two big problems with this, and before I start, let me be clear that I supported Vivi through this entire fight, and still do. However, I disagree vehemently with the way he won. I have two problems with this. First of all, anon votes. It was specified twice that all the normal rules would apply. This includes anon votes, yes? Why did these votes not count? Which brings me to my second issue. Anon votes in general. According to the rules, anon votes count for half a vote. This is easy enough to understand. However, according to this rule that I have never seen stated anywhere before, least of all the rules, the purpose of anon votes is purely to reflect normal votes or to break ties. So, what you are saying, is, "Your vote only matters if there's a tie. Otherwise, you'll just sit there and look pretty." Way to respect those who visit our site. Really.
There are three sensible ways to handle this, as labeled above:
#DNC rules apply except for tiebreaking. Terra wins.
#DNC rules apply in its entirety. It's a tie.
#MMII rules apply in its entirety. Vivi wins.
Three options. It's not that difficult.
- @Drake: It was due to how the fight was advertised - "Champion Bout", if I remember correctly. It made me think that there was some sort of grand title that was being contested between the MMI and MMII champions.
- I do not really care to outright wade into this, but I will throw in my thoughts from a distance.
As far as I am concerned, it should either use MMII rules or DNC rules in their entirety. More to the point, an arbitrary change in the rules should not occur part way into the fight, and certainly not at the closing of it. As for the rule that anons can make or break ties but may not invert the outcome, that is pure bullshit. As far as I am concerned, if it's not listed in the DNC rules, it is not an official rule.
So, then, we have three choices:
#DNC rules, with the caveat of "no tie": Obviously, this doesn't follow "rules in their entirety", but it is a case that needs to be looked at, as it is what I got the impression was the intended ruleset. Since DNC rules permit anon votes, Terra wins.
#DNC rules in their entirety: The result is a tie, because the difference between Terra's votes and Vivi's is less than 10%.
#MMII rules in their entirety: Vivi wins, because anon votes are not counted at all.
It is mildly interesting to note that all three possible outcomes occur exactly once, but that is beside the point. The odd thing is that, for a change, I actually agree with some of TA's reasoning. However, that is not to say I agree with what he did, because I most certainly do not. The simple fact is that for TA to invoke an unwritten rule at the last minute is, in my opinion, not remotely acceptable, and that assuming DNC-rules-minus-ties was the designated ruleset , Terra wins.
- From my own eyes I saw Vivi win and my first reaction when I counted the scores myself is...what the heck?! Next thinking comes to my mind is why. Anyways, while I do not know TA as much as everyone else on this site, I can see why everyone is put off by him.I'm stunned by how poorly TA handled this from start to finish . While TA gave a reasoning for his actions, when I think about it. If HE WAS REALLY INTENT on NOT USING ANNON VOTES, he would have never placed them in the first place. I don't care it's in the DNC. If you're not going to use Annon votes, you're either Lazy or you're hoping that it will help Vivi win the MMII tournament. I think he was expecting the annon votes to help Vivi and it backfired! So in the end he states his reasoning, while I grant it was fairly solid. The fact is TA made this decision ALONE!In other words TA likes the final word in the saying. And because of "HIS DECISION" to allow Vivi to win. AND YET USE THE EXCUSE OF ANNON VOTES CHEATING. Just shows how HYPOCRITICAL he is. Sorry but that's really what it looks like to me.
- Since I have not frequented the Final Fantasy Wiki as more than a WikiGnome and participant of Magicite Madness II, I cannot express any accounts from far back memory of TacticAngel's actions on the wiki. However, what I can observe from the short time that I have been frequently watching over this wiki during Magicite Madness II is that TacticAngel has been a problem for the wiki in three manners:
*Work ethic when responsible for a core feature of the Final Fantasy Wiki.
*Providing a good example as a role model and administrator of the Final Fantasy Wiki.
*Communicating effectively; creating issues with misconceptions, unjustified reasoning, and not assisting other users.
As the leader of the Dragon's Neck Colosseum, TacticAngel has an incredibly large responsibility on the wiki. However, it can certainly be done. There are over fifteen active user arenas on the wiki, most of which are being run by a single user handling votes, suggestions, and formatting. If about fifteen individual users can do this, why can TacticAngel not? Now, TacticAngel is human; if something has occurred in his life that is physically, mentally, or technologically affecting his accessibility to a computer to update the Dragon's Neck Colosseum, we should respect that. However, so should TacticAngel. TacticAngel should, as an administrator of a gaming wiki as large, old, and comprehensive as the Final Fantasy Wiki, relinquish the keys to the Dragon's Neck Colosseum Executive Office, to better the wiki and the arena. Furthermore, TacticAngel has confirmed for us there is no issue preventing him from updating, other than his laziness. As long as TacticAngel is in control, it can only be predicted that the arena shall continue to be updated less and create more issues with leadership on the wiki.
An administrator is rewarded for his work on the wiki with additional abilities, designed to assist an active user do work to benefit the wiki. Before I go any further in this statement, I do not believe TacticAngel, or any administrator/moderator for that matter, should have their status as a staff member relinquished. Although he certainly does not do work to the high degree that he formerly did, TacticAngel did an incredible amount of work for the wiki when it was truly needed. TacticAngel deserves to be honored for that work, especially with his role as an administrator of the wiki. It would be nice if TacticAngel used his abilities for their true purpose, but I believe that taking this away from him is ignorant of the work that he did do. No matter how badly a staff member messes up, they must be honored for the work they did to deserve their title.
Now on the negative side of this card, TacticAngel is not acting to best represent the Final Fantasy Wiki. A wiki is based on the cooperation of multiple persons to create the most comprehensive database possible, and also may seek to provide an enriching editing experience for the "workforce." TacticAngel refuses to work with others, having refused a need for assistance or a co-leader of the Dragon's Neck Colosseum. This goes directly against the basis on which any wiki is founded upon. Now and here, this issue has transcended itself into Magicite Madness II, with TacticAngel's inability to work with others, due to his own accord of not attempting to assist or work with others and their ideas, creating this issue. TacticAngel refused to change from any ideals except for his, which he even imposed on the wiki by adding a rule last-minute, with no consent of any other users. Even in the planning of this match, TacticAngel refused to realize what many users were telling him, instead posting long messages that only crafted more tension, with no aim to resolve the problem or compromise. TacticAngel's goal in these messages was not to help other users or settle the issue, but seemingly was instead to confuse his opponent to a degree of ending the conversation in his favor or to awkwardly explain points to avoid the question.
Lastly, there was something I noticed in the Dragon's Neck Colosseum rules that has been ignored about the tie rule that applies to this situation:
Ties may be called if the victor won by a margin of 10% or less.
Notice that with this rule, it does not say that a tie will be called, but only that it is an option. How does one decide whether or not to do this? Apparently, TacticAngel decides, and every time has decided to call ties, sometimes by removing anonymous votes. TacticAngel has not allowed the community any option in decided whether a tie should be called on a match, symbolic of his tyranny over the Dragon's Neck Colosseum and inability to allow other users to assist him or give their opinions on how things should be run.
However, this also means that TacticAngel followed all of the rules of the Dragon's Neck Colosseum, even though he did not call a tie. We have for too long interpreted this rule as meaning a tie will be called, but that evidently is not what it means at all.
I believe that the original arrangement should be honored. Magicite Madness II was the event here, the Dragon's Neck Colosseum was simply a page to post the fight. To create an allegory of this, imagine a present. This is the present that everyone wants for Christmas, but can be put in different boxes that the giver chooses between. What is more important: the event everyone has been waiting for for four months, or where it is held? What dictates whether or not the recipient of the gift will enjoy it: the gift, or the box it is in? Since this was Magicite Madness II, I believe that Faethin, Drake Clawfang, and BlueHighwind have the right to decide the outcome of this match.
I'm a supporter of Vivi, and though I'm not exactly Terra's biggest fan, I still see how she could have won. A wiki is important both in its readers and editing community, and the results reflect that, and if this was the agreement between the directors of the Magicite Madness II and TacticAngel, to use Dragon's Neck Colosseum rules and regulations, than that should be honored. However, what was used was not DNC rules. Instead, TacticAngel's rules were used, which almost none of us but TacticAngel himself agree with using. However, as per the clause in the rules that states "may", the way this match ends in regards to rules should be decided by the community...
However, is that not what we just tried to do in this match, but TacticAngel ruined?
- The only part of TA's explanation that I find dubious is:
Since the administrator of the DNC has never let the tally be switched from victory from one side to the other based on anonymous votes, only to define the margins of error or to push a fight in or out of a draw.
I believe TA has been quietly enforcing this rule in the DNC for a while now, because I recall several fights where a large amount of anonymous votes were removed, resulting in a swap in total vote lead. If this judgment is based on suspicious of anonymous cheating, then it is within TA's jurisdiction to enforce it.
However, when TA declared Vivi as champion, he did not bother to remove some of Terra's anonymous votes, prompting me to wonder if I forgot how to do math until I realized Terra's total of 50 was considered less than Vivi's 48 based on number of registered user votes.
Before I go any further, I will say that I don't care if Terra or Vivi wins this bout. I think the issue is whether the italicized explanation is considered acceptable or not.
It makes no sense to even count anonymous votes if they can be considered void in certain situations . If the contender with the higher amount of registered votes wins, there is no point in having more anonymous votes to increase that margin, with one exception. That exception is when the margin of registered votes is low enough to allow a tie to be declared, and anonymous votes can increase that margin to avoid the 10% rule tie.
However, the administrators of MMII decided to ignore the 10% rule. If TA wanted to enforce the entirety of the DNC rules, he should have called this match a tie, but he explains:
In the case of a defending champion in any existing sport, and indeed this tradition is one spawned out of sanity, the champion gets to keep his crown. If you would prefer a semantic change to say the fight is a draw and Vivi remains champion, I am agreeable to that.
I don't want to get into semantics, so this makes sense. The issue then goes back to whether anon votes really matter or not. No one has brought the validity of the rule up in the past; to complain about the its fairness now in order to change to outcome of Vivi vs. Terra is rather futile. I suppose one could challenge this rule now and reverse the results; indeed, this has already been done by a MMII administrator.
This "anon switch" rule needs be explicitly stated on the DNC page for future reference, or even better, be removed. Anon votes should only be removed if there is suspicion of sockpuppeting, the confirmation of which should be stated explicitly by the administrator for everyone else to see. Disregarding all anon votes in favor of whoever has more registered votes reduces anonymous voters to mere tiebreakers, and I feel this is counterproductive to even allowing anon votes. I am also interested to know what TA's explanation is for when anon votes would factor into the 10% tie rule. There needs to be more clarity.
Apologies for the lengthiness of this post - If nothing else, I hope it suggests some improvements for the DNC.
- I think the Peanut Gallery is just pointless. All it for is pointless fanboy/girl wars. And I am tried of see this pointless argument over nothing.
- Edit2: Looks like the page was last archived in January, and just hasn't been kept up with since then.
- If you ask it that way Drake, then your's and BlueHighwind's. You two are the organisators of this tourney, and so it is you guys who are ultimately responisble for it's execution, and thus, also for the tourney's rule. If they are unclear, it is up to you to clarify that all.
- I still say Refia actually won.
- I support...wholeheartedly.
- I want to see the math.
- Read the IRC conversation MC. TA demonstrated his thought process for assuming Terra's anon votes invalid and disqualifying them as such was not a reasonable one. TA had no logical reason to not count Terra's votes and admitted as such himself he could not prove they were cheating or invalid. For me it isn't about the anons deciding the verdict or not, it's about why they were discounted, if there is no good reason to discount them then they shouldn't be discounted, period. TA failed to provide a good reason for not counting these votes, so therefore they should be counted.
And considering you've accused me of cheating and obviously dislike Terra yourself MC, before you accuse us of bias take a look at yourself.
EDIT - And for the record, to me those statistics are meaningless. The DNC's voting patterns are not statistically predictable due to any number of variables, including how long the fight goes on, who's facing who, when the fight is held and so forth. So any set of data TA may provide on the voting, while correct for the sample size taken, cannot be used to predict with certainty the outcome of another fight.
- So basically what you're saying is that outta spite you refused to change the DNC battle? It isn't fair to keep everyone waiting because you think some people aren't contributing.. Isn't that power abuse? :\
- I mean, take a look at the real life: If you, say, organize a festival. Let us assume now, that the band you hired for the entertainment part is unable to show up, because the driver responsible for picking them up has failed to do so. Now, who will be blamed for this? The driver? Perhaps so, but ultimately, the plan goes to you, the organisator. Because you are the one responsible for the festival, because you are the one who has to see, that everything goes smoothly. It is what people expect from you. And they are right, because this is what you were hired to do.
- Should anyone makes a contest for a new logo for the Colosseum, cuz the used logo is dated IMO
- I'm sorry, but I disagree completely with the both of you, San-San and 8bit. TA's "logic" was no logic at all but a completely arbitrary move on his part: the disregard of anon votes, because they tipped the balance of the match in favour of one of the contenders, by means of an "unwritten rule" in which he weeded out votes as he pleased. Nothing more, nothing less. It actually all boils down what set of rules we should have used, indeed; and indeed we should have defined clearly this matter before having done anything at all.
Here's the problem though: TA always makes it extremely cumbersome, if not impossible, to discuss an issue pertaining the DNC. I beg you two to have a look at the links I provided and see for yourselves how every single question either Drake, BH or myself made was met with an ambiguous, smug or nonsensical reply on his part.
The fuss you mention, San-San, and that TA predicted, was made only, only because he acted in a manner that he was perfectly aware would cause controversy; he even states said awareness on his explanation. If the set of rules had been laid down there would have been no valid reason for fussing about the result.
Now, this whole thing I began had as objective to draw the attention of users to the poorly-handed outcome of the match thereby showing how utterly screwed up TA's record is. So, 8bit, this issue is as much as what rules we should've used as how poor his record is. While personal attacks should, of course, not be rule, I clearly state the following: these cannot be regarded as unprovoked and intolerable given the fact that TA himself walks into them by being a smug prick bent on making everyone believe he's smarter than them all the time.
- "It's not as though people search this place up for things that can be edited."
Isn't that the point of this wiki? To create and edit articles about the FF series? I, and the people who created the other 11,000+ articles on this wiki are certainly searching and updating.
"Now, if someone knows that a page DOES need changed, they could--y'know--do that?"
The top of Special:RecentChanges has links to things you can do. There's the To-do list on the side bar. Special:SpecialPages has maintenance tasks, while :Category:Final Fantasy Wiki lists a whole bunch of articles to be expanded, cleaned up and given images. Finally, :Category:Stubs is linked to from your welcome template.
I do understand that people may not have the time to edit articles , but "I don't know what to edit" is not a good excuse.
- Obvously, I like it. Thanks for the reference!
- I fold. I think TA is right, I don't think Terra won by any ruleset, so that's that. According to MMII rules - THE ONLY RULES WE SHOULD HAVE USED IN THE FIRST PLACE - she lost, according to DNC rules its a draw. I hate how we're in some stupid horrible little grey area, I hate how this wiki manages to make everything massively complicated when it should be simple, I hate that I had to share this competition with Drake Clawfang and TacticAngel. Why did this need to be a three-man operation anyway? Its stupid. Problems like this are bound to happen when three people are involved, especially when one is TA who is impossible to talk to. The whole thing is stupid, and it isn't fun anymore. Drakey, Faethin, you can keep up the idiocy, I'm done.
So in my power as Co-Creator of MMII I say Vivi wins. Can we all shut up now?
PS: Refia really won.
- After a lengthy discussion at the IRC channel, a couple of users, myself included, think that basically everything Kuja said is true. Furthermore, there are these additional points:
*The weeding out of anon votes by means of IP tracking was done in a mostly negligent manner, as it failed to take into account specific locations within extensive regions such as the US or the UK.
*The rule about not letting anons tip the balance in favour of a contestant, as appearing on the list thanks to the mediation of 8bit, is not retroactively applicable as it was only "officially" instanted after 8bit's careful wording of it.
However, I believe there is no error in the statistical analysis. So it all boils down to the premise Kuja spoke of: we cannot assume that this fight is related to the sample of all the other DNC fights.
- Don't make the same mistake I've done. Keep arguing with the same user, over something completely stupid.
- The endless stupidity of what I've seen here is beyond belief. THIS IS A FAN POLL!! ITS STUPID! ITS SUPPOSED TO BE FUN. WHY ARE YOU TAKING THIS SO SERIOUSLY? HOW CAN WE STILL BE DISCUSSING THIS? EVEN ILHI COULDN'T KEEP THIS UP THIS LONG!
This wiki sucks. I wish a wave vandals destroys you all.
- Two suggestions:
* Make a competition for the best new logo
* Make the current battles into Templates
I could make a template for it, but it's not me who puts new fights here so...
- I don't think that's the case. There was abuse of power. Terra DID get more votes. The most basic of maths agrees that she won. You can't shrug off Fae's attempt at justice because he likes Terra. Fae has been an admin for some time know and knows better than to put his emotions before his reason.
- "If you ask it that way Drake, then your's and BlueHighwind's. You two are the organisators of this tourney, and so it is you guys who are ultimately responisble for it's execution, and thus, also for the tourney's rule. If they are unclear, it is up to you to clarify that all." - obviously you've never tried speaking to Tactic Angel. We tried to clarify things when him, we tried to discuss with him, it never works because he either doesn't reply or replies in such a way as to be confusing. We bent over backwards to get the fight into the DNC as it was, and one of the conditions for that was that we use TA's DNC rules, but any discussion we tried to have with him over this ended in failure. Go click Fae's links to TA's talk page and comment again once you know what he's like.
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