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| - From: Thomas Alexander Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 1:09 pm Subject: The 1894 Pater Noster text Hi everyone, First a quick comment for Don Gasper. Thanks for your interest, but I do not expect that I will be posting a version of my 1894 presentation here -- at least not any time soon. Most of what I am putting into the presentation has been said here before - and a lot of it by me. Also, before you made your request, I had not given any thought to saving an electronic copy of my outline. (I made many notes with pencil and paper while reading, and I have been printing these up with the goal of having everything in paper on a flip chart to present.) It seems like a lot of work to then retype everything as an e-mail, especially considering that most of this information is freely available in the a
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| - From: Thomas Alexander Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 1:09 pm Subject: The 1894 Pater Noster text Hi everyone, First a quick comment for Don Gasper. Thanks for your interest, but I do not expect that I will be posting a version of my 1894 presentation here -- at least not any time soon. Most of what I am putting into the presentation has been said here before - and a lot of it by me. Also, before you made your request, I had not given any thought to saving an electronic copy of my outline. (I made many notes with pencil and paper while reading, and I have been printing these up with the goal of having everything in paper on a flip chart to present.) It seems like a lot of work to then retype everything as an e-mail, especially considering that most of this information is freely available in the archives of this list already. One thing I noticed has to do with the Pater Noster text in the reform. By the way, this is the only actual text in the reform which I've been able to find, although I've written a few of my own. I have not succeeded to find reference a single person - living or dead - other than myself and Zamenhof who ever wrote anything in the reform. What is worth pointing out here is that the Pater Noster text (which I found in PVZ and in various locations around the internet - including on web pages belonging to members of this list here) was written to demonstrate the *grammar* of the reform, and not the final form of the language. Last night I made a new translation (based on Z's original) which I thought I'd share. Original: Patro nue kvu esten in cielo, sankte estan tue nomo, venan regito tue, estan volo tue, kom in cielo sik anku sur tero. Pano nue omnedie donan al nu hodiu e pardonan al nu debi nue, kom nu anku pardonen al nue debenti; ne kondukan nu in tento, sed liberigan nu de malbono. Adapted (reflecting changes in vocabulary): Patro nose kvu esten in cielo, sankte estan tue nomo, venan regno tue, estan volo tue, kom in cielo sik anku sur tero. Pano nose omnudie donan al nos hodiu e pardonan al nos debi nose, kom nos anku pardonen al nose debenti; ne kondukan nos in tento, sed liberigan nos de malbono. One hesitation I have is whether the correct word for "daily" is "omnedie" or "omnudie." If we think of the word as "cxiu-taga", then Zamenhof's version contains an error, even considering only the previously published descriptions of the language, since at that time (and after) "cxiu" was "omnu." However, "cxiel" was "omnemaniere", so it's possible to think of "omne-" as a prefix. If so, then it should indeed be "omnedie" in both versions. An alternate justification for "omnemaniere" would be either to see it as a whole root, or to think of it as "cxia-maniere", since "cxia" is "omne" in the reform. It's also interesting that the second sentence starts out with an unmarked accusative. Actually, Don, what I'd like to do with these notes (after giving the presentation) is to work them up into a more accessible description and discussion of the project - including a two-way dictionary and basic lessons as well as a study of the motivations leading up to the reform. This could be published as a book or web page. Amike salutas, Thomas/Tomaso ALEXANDER.
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