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| - <@auntdeen2> so I have a general question for the neighborhood... casp is almost over - which would you consider more important a priority? fixing current bugs - or shiny new tools? or something else? [02:00:40] since I'm fairly new, I still am not good with the existing tools yet! Don't need more to confuse me. :) [02:01:21] <@Madde> are there still significant bugs around? [02:01:24] <@auntdeen2> :-) so maybe more learning tools? video? [02:02:03] yes x100 [02:02:21] <@auntdeen2> dunno madde - if not bugs then long requested features/fixes - from looking at the feedback [02:02:54] <@auntdeen2> the original request for a "pause" button that Brick did is years old [02:03:25] Solve the scisma between old and new interface, perhaps? [02:03:59] <@Madde> the devs probably waiting for the 5th anniversary of that request [02:04:08] lol [02:04:21] <@auntdeen2> Omni - there is history to that that you can search on the website - the selection interface is no longer supported [02:04:55] <@auntdeen2> but no question there are some advantages to it that *should* be integrated into the original [02:05:02] <@auntdeen2> lol Madde [02:05:53] when did foldit go on line? [02:06:05] <@auntdeen2> maybe just to me - but I'd rather have a pause button than any other new tool I can dream of [02:06:11] I know but theres still things that can only be done in the old interface, isn't there? [02:06:15] <@Madde> open beta started May 2008 [02:06:29] <@auntdeen2> Omni - old = original? [02:06:49] <@auntdeen2> the selection came after [02:07:12] Is there any way to cycle through sidechain positions in the main interface? [02:07:29] <@Madde> I think downloading new recipes is the only thing I use the old interface for [02:07:36] <@auntdeen2> rofl - you can do that in selection?! [02:07:58] <@Madde> in selection it's a bit buggy [02:08:15] <@auntdeen2> madde - we are opposite then, I rarely use the selection interface [02:09:04] I went into selection by mistake today - couldn't get out fast enough [02:09:39] <@auntdeen2> I would love to see any script you downloaded automatically be shared to yourself [02:09:51] <@auntdeen2> that sounds like me, Brick [02:10:13] <@auntdeen2> it seems clunky to me [02:12:35] <@auntdeen2> so greep & harp - what kinds of thing - and how - would you like to see as teaching tools? [02:15:08] I don't know what else could be used as a teaching tool [02:15:29] <@auntdeen2> you mean video, yes? [02:18:45] video ;would be good, the baker lab does good video, but not many of them play. I would like to see folders show us in "real time" situations [02:19:23] <@auntdeen2> so... maybe webinars that could be recorded and placed on the website? [02:19:33] great idea [02:19:57] I think it would be helpful to have better classification of Recipes. Some method for benchmarking older vs. newer versions of the same script would help too. [02:20:34] <@auntdeen2> good idea, gitwut... how would you do that? [02:20:52] I think classification of recipes is difficult [02:21:36] I had several ideas that I put fort in a feedback, but it was slightly off-topic and didn't stir much interest. Let me see if I can find the feedback. [02:21:46] forth* [02:21:52] <@auntdeen2> true tokens... but maybe a system of simply keywords? [02:23:06] yes, that was the gist of it [02:23:08] sorry, I was afk, but it would help me to actually see a video of someone hand manipulating an actual puzzle. For example, I can't make sense out of the cutpoint stuff. Why would you want to use it? etc. [02:23:52] <@auntdeen2> I think that would help many [02:24:03] [02:24:04] Well, I would like a classification, but for me it seems like utopia. Even start game, mid game and end game doesn't really make sense for scripts [02:24:18] <@auntdeen2> even the oldest vets have a learning curve when it comes to new tools [02:24:40] mutate, structural, utility, etc [02:25:23] The thing is to be able to assign multiple tags for each script [02:25:52] settlers, quakes, fuzes [02:26:10] symmetry [02:26:24] I would like to have a permanent practice protein to play with so I could try out the scripts etc before I actually need them. maybe that's dumb? lol [02:26:43] you can create contests [02:26:49] <@auntdeen2> greepski - that's an awesome idea [02:26:59] <@auntdeen2> go feedback that! [02:27:08] it would be nice to have a few permanent proteins available as a test bed for scripts [02:27:28] yes, that is a good idea [02:27:30] <@auntdeen2> yes - something smallish but not too small [02:27:50] gitwut: I see I already answered you comments in that feedback. I still dont think it makes sense in practice to classify scripts like that [02:28:50] <@auntdeen2> tokens - do you think that a keyword/tag system might be helpful for some folders? [02:29:05] Why not? It's no differnt than using labels to categorize your gmail. [02:31:22] And, it's something to go by--as opposed to nothing whatsoever. [02:31:35] <@auntdeen2> because I have folded for so long, I have many scripts and am familiar with most of them... but will admit that occasionally I get a surprise to find out that one will do mutate, also [02:31:55] well, a classification might help beginners to get started. But it might might also reduce creativity with regards to how you use scripts [02:32:50] a good script writer would write what the script is capable of in the comments of the script [02:33:17] I don't see it, tokens. Even with classifications you'll still get stuck or find something that works better. But it's a starting point. [02:33:18] oh I wish they all did that [02:33:22] I usually look at the source code of my scripts, so I don't have the problem of not knowing what a script can do [02:33:50] <@auntdeen2> I get what you are saying about limiting... but tokens, many do not open the scripts to see the code [02:33:52] hi [02:33:54] Assuming all scripts contain no bugs [02:33:57] there's only a small percentage that can do that [02:34:05] read the source [02:34:22] and understand it [02:34:22] <@auntdeen2> true [02:34:46] imagain if recipies and scrips didnt exist [02:34:50] <@auntdeen2> I can read it and get general understanding - but mod, no [02:34:52] well, another thing is that I think it would be hard for people to agree on a classification in the first place [02:35:26] and there are so many combo scripts now, they would just end up with all the tags [02:35:28] how difficalt would this game be> [02:35:30] ? [02:35:50] My point of view is that scripts are too complex for any classification to make sense [02:36:02] I agree [02:36:07] haha [02:36:15] but I would love to be proven wrong [02:36:17] <@auntdeen2> true Brick - and the way it's going, more scripts are ttempting to cover all bases these days [02:37:19] <@auntdeen2> but for the older scripts, it would be nice to have them semi-classified [02:37:23] lol [02:37:31] fix the recipe editor with line numbers [02:37:59] also list update times for recipes within cookbook to help keep track of versions [02:38:41] Regular copy/paste/select would be nice too. [02:39:45] little images of the shared protein structures to help users decide which ones to evolve [02:40:10] should we all just revive our favorite feedback cases? [02:41:05] the little images could even rotate around like characters in Mario Kart do [02:41:33] I don't think a small image would do any difference jeff. You wouldn't be able to see much [02:41:35] We can't even get all script writers to use a universal naming convention. [02:41:47] How on earth can we classify them properly? [02:42:12] somehow youtube classifies videos in a useful manner [02:42:30] What does V2 mean? Depends on which script you are looking at. [02:43:46] there are ways to compare text files. some schools use plagiarism detectors that look for common text [02:45:21] Another issue with scripts are the disappearing act when someone makes a change without changing the name before a save. [02:45:38] <@auntdeen2> and that seems to be a bug, smiling [02:45:49] operator error. [02:45:54] yes some decent form of version control for scripts would be great [02:46:14] common sense would seem to dictate the changing of the name when making a change. [02:46:20] ones that are parents/children could be sorted easily enough [02:47:18] sometimes names don't change because the new version is meant to replace the old one [02:47:31] old one had some bug, new one has fixed the bug [02:47:38] most of the time it is someone making their own favourite change [02:47:58] <@auntdeen2> and... many never even know that there is a bug [02:48:07] if cookbook kept track of authors as well as names, that might help [02:48:45] same name but different author gives separate recipe in cookbook [02:48:50] naming convention is greatest issue that I see. coupled with proper discriptive comments [02:49:36] It's really easy for me. I only used scripts from a very select few. [02:50:03] don't want to use someones experiment that wiggles it into cement [02:50:46] Pause button for scripts would be my #1 wish [02:50:55] every user probably gathers impressions about each recipe [02:51:21] there could be a place in cookbook for users to put their own notes for each recipe [02:52:13] If you really like a recipe a lot you can simply save it to self under a slightly changed name and make extensive comments. [02:52:29] <@auntdeen2> many good ideas here tonite - and many older requests still hanging fire and wanted [02:52:35] if this info went back to the Foldit site, they could crunch it all together to make a global description of the code [02:52:38] scripts no longer autounshare when changed [02:53:01] As of when brow? [02:53:03] I would love to see them implementing design of new molecules (which there was talk about some time ago). That would be a whole new game to have design puzzles where you had to design a ligand for a protein [02:53:07] 2-3 weeks [02:53:24] Good to know brow [02:54:17] Do the changed ones go up in place of the original? [02:54:38] they do when reshared [02:55:09] I general I prefer the developers to work on new features, rather than small changes to the existing features [02:55:30] So, I save a combo to my group and someone makes a change and unbeknownst to me it is now different? [02:55:37] I prefer not to have an entire change history like some source code repository [02:55:41] <@auntdeen2> there are many scripts where the old versions are better for certain types of puzzles than the newest [02:56:03] no, smilingone. only you can save and reshare the script [02:56:12] when people use Save As, the script becuse a child [02:56:35] peple who are not authors of the script cannot save the script, they must use Save As, the UI forces this. [02:56:39] yes, but, what happens when someone else uses save instead of save as? [02:57:33] are you sure brow? [02:57:54] very. These used to be marked 'Read Only' in the old cookbook. [02:58:09] The Save button is greyed out on any script you download [02:58:21] is it possible for users to manually say their recipe is a child of another one? [02:58:35] since the Foldit editor is so bad, folks often use other editors [02:58:46] it is possible to hack the system in the client, although I don't know what wouold happen when you try to upload it [03:00:05] if you edit outside and then paste the entire changed recipe into the editor, the editor doesn't know if it was made from scratch or adapted from someone else's code [03:00:15] correct [03:01:09] so the automatically determined parent/child relationship won't occur [03:01:46] correct. It's not automatic. It happens when you use 'Save As' in a buffer that belongs to an existing script. [03:02:17] how to establish the parent/child relationship manually? [03:02:31] Save As works fine. [03:02:48] open script. clear code. paste code. Save As. [03:03:18] Save will be grey unless you own the script. [03:04:03] If you've already saved it from an empty buffer so that it has no parent, then there isn't a legit way to create that relationship after the fact. [03:09:59] <@auntdeen2> thanks everyone for a lively and informative discussion... [03:10:22] <@auntdeen2> it would be great to see some feedbacks :-) [03:11:48] <@auntdeen2> ...or you can rely on my memory banks to try to pass most of this onto the devs at some point :-P [03:13:12] <@auntdeen2> greepski - thanks for doing feedback, have uprated :-) [03:14:16] Hoops! [03:14:51] like bands, but the protein can slide through them, so really more like pullies or the eye of a needle [03:16:15] <@auntdeen2> jeff - is that the same as freeze/lock in space? [03:16:29] I disagree that it is a duplicate [03:16:46] would you do me a favor and bump it as not a duplicate? [03:17:24] <@auntdeen2> okay... then go do another comment which explains why it isn't - why it's different - and reopen yourself :-) [03:17:33] <@auntdeen2> that would be more effective [03:18:19] <@auntdeen2> I think that although you put a lot of thought into the concept, most people perhaps don't have the vision yet [03:33:38] I just stumbled upon this auntdeen [03:33:40] [03:37:17] If we could move the protein EXACTLY where we want it, with strength 1000 bands, and then thread that the way the alignment tool works, you'd have what Jeff is asking [03:43:42] something that lets the protein move like a snake, worm, or centipede would help [03:44:45] AA1 moves forward, then AA2 takes the position AA1 used to be in, then AA3 moves to where AA2 was, etc. [03:46:09] that would be interesting [03:53:51] if you like the idea, please up-vote it at [03:54:38] I will read it [03:55:06] thanks [03:56:52] Your idea is interesting I justed finished reading it. [03:59:20] hoops are like tees and holes on a golf course [04:01:19] tightly coiled proteins will take more AA's to go from one hoop to another, sort of like people using the 9 iron for every shot on a golf course [04:03:15] no matter how many shots (amino acids) it takes, the golfer still has to go through every tee and hole (hoop) in a specified order [04:03:34] That's more like croquet. ... [04:27:36] Better teaching tools, of course. We chat mods aren't always here. [04:27:39] <@auntdeen2> I know - you want better hoof to protein interface [04:27:53] Yes, yes. SO hard to fold with hooves. [04:28:21] lol [04:28:31] Still waiting for Kinect For Horses for FoldIt. [04:28:32] <@auntdeen2> those who wished that seemed to think that webinar (live) lessons with video for posting on website after would be best [04:30:11] <@auntdeen2> so much has changed since the last test videos and the youtubes were done [04:30:22] It would be nice to actually see someone go through their process of folding. ... [04:32:23] <@auntdeen2> yep - the players on top teams have a small advantage by seeing screenshots, etc - but even within teams video is priceless - and for foldit as a whole, becoming necessary [04:33:22] We have the ability to record FoldIt play with audio. Once life at the Hacienda calms down, I could see putting together a short training video or videos. [04:34:08] <@auntdeen2> when I was skyed into the dev meeting I attended, zoran was talking about webinars... [04:34:26] Sweetness. What kinds of software would we need? [04:34:38] <@auntdeen2> I suspect that the devs can probably provide the tools for that and for video recording them [04:35:05] <@auntdeen2> they may be able to get pro tools that we wouldn't want to pay for individually [04:35:23] I still want to see different players' approaches to the game. Would they actually buy software for us to use? [04:36:06] How about they set up a PayPal or WePay account for us to donate to, to help buy the stuff? [04:36:18] <@auntdeen2> I found an excellent remote viewer, JoinMe - but it doesn't work for Linux :-([04:36:24] I know Boots' credit card would come in handy for that. :-) [04:36:32] <@auntdeen2> lol Trig [04:37:15] <@auntdeen2> I think that we need to make the case to them that they should provide (it seemed as if zoran was heading in that direction) [04:37:50] [hoof up in approval to that idea] [04:37:56] <@auntdeen2> but if not, then yeah - maybe we could all contribute a bit for the right license to make it easier [04:38:29] <@auntdeen2> and the devs do need however to find a way for the website to accommodate hd video [04:38:57] And free ourselves from YouTube? [04:45:13] <@auntdeen2> our proteins have gotten so complex - like the electron density - that we need both HD and good size [04:45:46] <@auntdeen2> there is still nowhere that I'm aware of that's easy and free and able to upload unlimited [04:45:52] But isn't that going to severely limit our freinds with lesser computers? [04:46:07] <@auntdeen2> and since we do actually have a foldit website - should go there [04:46:15] <@auntdeen2> in what respect? [04:46:32] <@auntdeen2> all I would like to see is exactly what we see ingame [04:46:36] Actually, lesser internet connections. [04:46:41] <@auntdeen2> with that clarity and size [04:47:22] <@auntdeen2> if we need to post non-hd additionally, that's easy [04:47:31] Fair enough. [04:47:52] <@auntdeen2> but it needs to be on foldit website [04:48:06] <@auntdeen2> even the wikia has limitations for what we need [04:48:11] Do they have the server space for all that data? [04:48:21] <@auntdeen2> well [04:48:26] <@auntdeen2> have no idea [04:48:41] I am thinking they have only one server. [04:48:51] <@auntdeen2> but considering that at least once a month we have chat or website issues... [04:48:57] Which crashes with alarming regularity. [04:49:16] <@auntdeen2> maybe they need to finally move the website and chat to the same setup as the game [04:49:57] <@auntdeen2> they spend little enough resources on players :-) [04:51:09] <@auntdeen2> lol - in fact, the hosting company I use has unlimited storage and bandwidth - for slightly over a hundred a year [04:51:51] <@auntdeen2> if they are that tight financially, then we have much bigger problems than videos :-P [04:52:32] It is a university-sponsored thing. I think it's all dependent on grant money. Grants aren't for forever. [04:52:49] <@auntdeen2> that's true [04:53:15] We helped Rav get up to speed. We can do the same for the Baker group. [04:53:30] <@auntdeen2> and if that's the case, then maybe we can go the paypal route :-) [04:57:29] It helped that some of the AD team lifted me up there. I am not solely to blame for that. [04:57:54] rofl [04:58:07] <@auntdeen2> sooo.... fyi, one reason I am on the bandwagon about the videos is that our team is about to release a technique that many of us use, when casp is done [04:58:21] <@auntdeen2> huh - I didn't see that, Trig [04:58:21] Of course... AFTER. :-p [04:58:35] <@auntdeen2> lol [04:58:56] <@auntdeen2> the reason is that it is not very effective for the refinement puzzles [04:59:17] Is that you CAN'T FREAKIN' WALK puzzles any more! [04:59:32] <@auntdeen2> and all of us are flat out anyway - best to do it when everyone wants to play with something new [05:01:59] <@auntdeen2> Trig - we earlier discussed briefly the demise of walking :-([05:02:58] Has anyone ever given a proper explanation to why it's no longer viable? [05:03:57] <@auntdeen2> sigh - I'd kinda like them to just put it back the way it was [05:03:58] but he backtracked very quickly when I called that an "official" explanation [05:03:59] You can't walk even from square one. [05:04:16] <@auntdeen2> yeah - I've seen that [05:04:35] Contenders has proof it doesn't work at all. [05:04:37] <@auntdeen2> I'd like to see them nail that down before they introduce anything else [05:04:52] <@auntdeen2> then - send it on to the devs!!!! [05:05:04] We have. [05:05:09] <@auntdeen2> good [05:05:09] Fallen on deaf ears. [05:05:21] <@auntdeen2> agh [05:05:49] <@auntdeen2> maybe we as players need to give the devs a list of what we would like as priorities [05:06:01] <@auntdeen2> like fixing walking [05:06:04] When I skyped with David Baker, I said just that. [05:06:08] <@auntdeen2> a pause button [05:06:09] And he agreed. [05:06:39] <@auntdeen2> then - end of week when casp is done - time to work on that [05:07:04] will there be a global chat with the devs any time soon? [05:08:02] my guess is beta's been too busy to organize one [05:08:03] <@auntdeen2> none are scheduled - but I suspect that there will be not too long after casp end [05:09:16] it's been a while [05:11:14] <@auntdeen2> well - besides a lot of work for casp, the devs have had conferences - and vacations like many for summer [05:11:52] classes will start soon too. college professors are busy folks
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