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| - This isn't inferior to either Imbagon or Moebius+SY!, it's more of a mix between the two. Imbagon doesn't add much damage even when bringing Spear of Lightning, etc. It also doesn't have much self-defense outside of being ranged (since Cracked armor means 60AL). and the only advantage it has over this is TNTF! which is usually overkill after SY! Moebius obviously does more damage than this, but can't come close to maintaining SY! unless you have 10+ in lux/kurz. This can more than easily maintain SY!, even at low levels, and can also deal damage and have excellent self-preservation (75% blacks plus 100AL). This build is different to the other two, not inferior. --JaiGoesMonksassinFile:Monksassin-icon.png 19:32, 27 May 2009 (UTC) Self-preservation in a non-farming builds is bad. You have monks. Also, if you're snared, you can't put up SY anymore, so it's still inferior to an Imbagon. Not to mention, you're relying on enchantments. ยทยทยท Danny Does Drugs 19:40, 27 May 2009 (UTC) When everyone else has +100AL and you've become a huge squishy target, self-preservation is good. And it's all stuff that maintains itself, so no damage is lost. Also, your snare argument could be said for ANY melee prof, including the godly MS>DB. This is actually less susceptible to snares because a lot of them are cripple, which CD will block. And if you do get snared, either get it removed or attack something that is sitting still. Not to mention, MS>DB relies on enchantments, as well as the majority of Assassin, Dervish, and caster builds. If you're expecting enchantment removal, bring a cover or just use a different build. Obvious counters to almost all builds are not a reason for a WELL tag. --JaiGoesMonksassinFile:Monksassin-icon.png 19:49, 27 May 2009 (UTC) Erm, if you're the only one on your team who is a squishy, the monk only has 1 person to focus on. Let monks do the work.----Image:Signature-Liger414.pngThe Liger is looking for a HA guild 19:52, 27 May 2009 (UTC) There's no point NOT running defense. You only need 3 skills here, so it's not like you're hard up for space. If the bar was really tight I'd agree, but it's self-maintainable and there's nothing else better to put there. --JaiGoesMonksassinFile:Monksassin-icon.png 19:57, 27 May 2009 (UTC) You're arguing the wrong thing. this is bad because MS/DB can keep SY up just as well, and has much more dmg.--|Image:Hipowi sig.jpg Hipowi pew pew pew 21:43, 27 May 2009 (UTC) Wrong. MS>DB actually has a good amount of downtime. Even with an IAS, it takes about 5 and a half seconds to charge "SY!" Whereas here it takes 4.5 seconds or less. In other words, even with rank 3 or lower, this can near-maintain SY. I know that a lot of people don't AB much, which means that with MS>DB SY will be up barely more than two-thirds of the time with low ranks. Honestly, this should be compared more to Imbagon. They both play the same role, but this does more damage and has more overall defense. To me, this either needs to not be compared to MS>DB, or Imbagon needs to have a much lower rating (since according to your standard, it's inferior to MS>DB). --JaiGoesMonksassinFile:Monksassin-icon.png 22:46, 27 May 2009 (UTC) Fine, I'll compare it to a dragon slash war. --|Image:Hipowi sig.jpg Hipowi pew pew pew 22:51, 27 May 2009 (UTC) And imbagons have more defense than just SY. --|Image:Hipowi sig.jpg Hipowi pew pew pew 22:52, 27 May 2009 (UTC) (EC)its good to have sy up as much as possible, but if ur not killing things in 3 seconds like you do with ms/db, then spamming save yourselves is pointless. that and you dont need save yourselves to win pve. and nothing compares to imbagon because he has tn2f and can stand around throwing his spear all protecting the back and middle line rather than a frontliner affecting 2-3 people half the time while he chases stuff down to hit--Relyk 22:55, 27 May 2009 (UTC) IMO, TNFT seems pretty redundant to me. You've already got 80% damage reduction on the majority of damage coming in, why do you need more? And Imbagon can't kill well either, so why isn't it pointless? Also, DS+SY only lasts part of the time, with at least some downtime during the fight (it's still one of the better ways to maintain SY), and also doesn't do retarded amounts of damage with buffs like LF does. And by the way, I absolutely love Imbagon, DS+SY!, MS>DB (though I don't like how everyone thinks it's the only and best thing 'Sins can run), and other such builds, but that doesn't mean there isn't room for other good builds. This, while maybe not quite as powerful as MS>DB in general, should have its place on wiki simply due the synergy with physical buffs and the fact it can easily maintain SY with no downtime. --JaiGoesMonksassinFile:Monksassin-icon.png 01:35, 28 May 2009 (UTC) imbagon does big damages! and tn2f is way too good not to bring anyways, theres no reason not to, its like critical agility on a sin. Btw locusts fury builds spamming sy have been posted about 15-16 times now, and in fact they dont do that much damage D:--Relyk 01:53, 28 May 2009 (UTC) Here's an example: If you had pre-nerf WotA and a +armor skill, why would you need CA? It's just like SY+TNTF in my eyes: It's redundant to bring it. Again, this might not be optimal, but it still has its uses and is not eclipsed by other SY builds like you make it out to be. --JaiGoesMonksassinFile:Monksassin-icon.png 04:24, 28 May 2009 (UTC) TN2F is freaking amazing. SY! and TN2F are for completely different purposes. For one, TN2F actually protects you. Second, it protects against armor ignoring damage, as well as providing pressure relief when it ends. LifeImage:WikiLOD7.gif 04:37, 28 May 2009 (UTC) Also, about imbagons not doing damage... I run GFtE and Vicious on mine, I get plenty damage plus a DW almost always, and still have no SY downtime... And the "squishie", a 76AL midliner is not squishie (80-20+16)... That said, I think this build isn't inferior or superior to the MS/DB sin, they look about the same...Anwyn 06:20, 28 May 2009 (UTC) You need to buy a Q7 15AL shield Anwyn. LifeImage:WikiLOD7.gif 06:24, 28 May 2009 (UTC) I have one Life, my post was meant for the majority that don't... ;) Anwyn 07:41, 28 May 2009 (UTC) Which is what most things should be tailored towards.--Ikimono"a rabid grizzly bear"Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png 07:42, 28 May 2009 (UTC) Also, this should be able to prevent damage simply because it can actually tank with 100AL and 75% block chance, which should at least rival the amount of damage prevented by TNTF. I will admit however that I somewhat forgot about the para's shield (for some reason I can't get it drilled into my brain that paras use shields, even though I actually have a paragon). Anyway, even if this isn't quite as great as Imbagon, never in hell does it deserve 1-1 votes, either. This deals more damage than Imbagon in almost all cases, and has right around as much defense for the team and himself. --JaiGoesMonksassinFile:Monksassin-icon.png 16:40, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
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