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- Do we need to repeat our standard comment that a god who would make us so we can’t avoid sinning, then punish us eternally for being the way he made us would not be just, merciful or loving.
- If there were any evidence for Hell this would make sense but there is no confirmation of hell. Indeed it is implausible that a loving God would create hell or create people foreknowing they would end up there. Ray, Kirk and others who preach about hell are upsetting people for no good reason, such preachers are misguided or evil depending on how far they personally believe what they preach.
- The text of Luke 18 in the King James Version of the bible says neither that the man came running nor that the rich man got down on his knees <a href="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/lk/18.html#18">http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/lk/18.html#18</a> http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+18%3A18-23&version=KJV though Mark 10 has the same story with the man getting onto his knees. <a href="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/mk/10.html#17">http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/mk/10.html#17</a> If the man got onto his knees that would seem to suggest humility.
- These 10 symptoms mentioned are the Ten Commandments, but as the article are you a good person? already explains, these symptoms are fictional.
None of these things are examples of symptoms. They are simple human nature. The only way they can be considered symptoms is with a Christian presupposition. A Scientologist can take any human being and simply go through his/her human nature, and point out to around 100 "symptoms" that all point to depression, which can only be treated with Scientology. This is in a sense exactly with Ray and Kirk are doing. Their disease and symptoms only exist in their imaginations, all forged strictly for being human. They might as well say that it is sinful to think happy thoughts or tell the truth.
What neither Ray or Kirk can accomplish is a unbiased argument to prove their claims. They use their presupposition that sin exists to prove that sin exists. The only thing that comes out of this roller-coaster is that Ray and Kirk can use it to label people as wicked and trash.
The thing is there is there is no cure. The only thing Ray and Kirk are providing is an invisible product which created the invisible problem to begin with.
This argument is no better than a Muslim, Scientologist, etc. using the same logic without the need to prove their concepts of sin, thetans, etc.
- Again the King James text of Luke 18 does not mention the first commandment, Kirk may have confused this with Matthew 6:24 which says that a man cannot serve both god and mammon. <a href="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/6.html#24
Incidentally">http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/6.html#24
Incidentally</a> we wonder how seriously Kirk and Ray take the text of Matthew, that one cannot serve god and money, also the text Luke 18 and Mark 10 asking rich people to give what they have to the poor. Living Waters Ministries makes a great deal of money and we wonder what happens to all that money. http://raytractors.blogspot.com/2008/08/piety-of-ray-little-web-sleuthing.html
- People who have been preached to by Ray’s system also sin continually because no human being can stop doing wrong as is well known. Ray Comfort just imagines or pretends his system is superior.
- It appears Kirk is referring to The Acts 2. By no means all in the audience were humble, some mocked and accused the apostles of taking too much new wine. <a href="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/acts/2.html#13">http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/acts/2.html#13</a> Peter didn’t lecture even the less humble about the law. Why? Because he feared some in the audience understood the law better than he did?
- ? It's unlikely this preaching had any lasting effect on someone who doesn't accept Ray's religious premises.
- What did Jesus preach about repentance? If Ray and Kirk only care what Paul preached, then they are following Paul, not Jesus. Jesus gave numerous ways to repent and enter heaven, among them to hate your family, friends, loved ones, and even your own life.
Incidentally in another section of Way of the Master Ray and Kirk, especially Ray insist that our sense of right and wrong is inborn. A hypothetical case is presented of a man who grew up without human contact, without moral instruction and committed terrible wrongs. Ray asserts that this man would be responsible for his actions and Kirk does not disagree. Here Ray quotes Saint Paul saying that without the law he would not know what sin is, Ray and Kirk cannot rationally have things both ways.
- Many would argue that this approach is not just indoctrination, but also child abuse. The Ten Commandments, as known to many, are forms of control - for instance, demanding to honor your parents when that kind of respect should rather be earned based on a parent's performance and behavior.
It’s easy to see how sadistic parents can give their kids nightmares about hell and imagine or pretend it’s done to save their souls. In the brilliant words of the late George Carlin: "Some parents deserve respect. Most of them don't. Period."
Even parents, who aren’t sadistic, after hearing Ray and Kirk, might think they must frighten their children to protect them.
- The King James bible text says Nicodemus maintained that Jesus ‘came from god’ not that Jesus was the son of god. Jesus says later that he is the son of god. Nicodemus is not clearly more humble than the man who fell on his knees. Further it is not clear that Nicodemus received grace, rather Nicodemus was told riddles that he couldn’t understand, Ray and Kirk interpret the text as fits their agenda.
An alternative explanation is that Jesus was an ordinary human being and knew better than to lecture about the law to someone who knew the law better than Jesus did. Instead Jesus kept the upper hand by telling puzzling riddles.
Incidentally there is no reliable independent evidence for the so-called Miracles of the gospels.
- The thing is, a Muslim can easily turn the tables around on Ray and Kirk. Have they ever made a pilgrimage to Mecca or given to charity? If not, then Mohammad provides a way of salvation. It is the same deal, and neither of them can prove their case.
- Do we need to repeat that the WOTM team are frightening people without any evidence that hell exists?
- No, the videos are not for our entertainment, this author certainly does not find them entertaining. There is just more and more of the same type of stuff making people frightened and miserable in this world to conform to Mythology of the Bronze Age and Iron Age without giving any reasons why that mythology should be taken seriously.
Incidentally many Christians deny that Ray and Kirk system is the way Jesus preached, perhaps that is why Ray prefers to quote dead evangelists who can’t answer back.
- Quoting dead evangelists could be convenient for Ray and Kirk because dead evangelists can’t get up and say they disagree with Ray and Kirk in any way.
- Judaism has differing beliefs about what happens after death but only extremely wicked souls would face eternal punishment, most get to god eventually. <a href="http://www.myjewishlearning.com/beliefs/Theology/Afterlife_and_Messiah/Life_After_Death/Heaven_and_Hell.shtml">http://www.myjewishlearning.com/beliefs/Theology/Afterlife_and_Messiah/Life_After_Death/Heaven_and_Hell.shtml</a> <a href="http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/239,164/Does-Judaism-believe-in-Heaven-and-Hell.html">http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/239,164/Does-Judaism-believe-in-Heaven-and-Hell.html</a> Ray Comfort’s system that puts people in danger of hell due to minor sins doesn’t apply in Judaism.
- Does Ray Comfort fear the consequences of wrong acts he personally does? Why, for example did he condemn plagiarism when preaching to someone else and do it himself, see Plagiarism and lust
Neither does Ray seem to know what sin is. Does sin mean "immoral" or "unclean"? Is it forgiven through sacrifice or prayer? Can a sinner, who does not accept Jesus enter heaven? Well, Elijah sure did enter Heaven, but never heard of Jesus.
- Is Jesus one with the Father or are they separate beings with different attributes? http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/interp/jesus_god.html
- Note 1 Timothy 1:8 says the law is "good" not that it must be mandatory to use to reach the lost. Second of all, it should be noted that there are strong suspicions Timothy was written by a forger <a href="http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/epistles1.htmhttp://homepages.which.net/~radical.faith/background/forgeries.htm">http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/epistles1.htmhttp://homepages.which.net/~radical.faith/background/forgeries.htm</a> - a forger is someone who consciously aims to deceive others, in this case lying for Jesus.
- Would that very good Christian think it ethical to take advantage of a mentally unstable person who sells his house for an unspecified reason and gives him the money? Christians need to stop pretending they’re superior.
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