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| - There's also the fact that Nolan has a son himself, so the idea of relating to that kind of father/son dynamic was easier for him and really, that's all the story essentially called for. Yeah, he could have blown it up and included more of the Gordon family, but as the man was stuck trimming fat off of the movie anyway by the time TDK had to be ready to go, it probably wouldn't have made to the screen anyway. Finally, it's probably a bit of a holdover from Year One, where Gordon's son is put in danger and Batman winds up saving his life. I guess with all the attention Barbara Gordon (Batgirl) had gotten in media over the years, focussing on James Gordon Jr. for a bit was definitely a new way to go. If Gordon's little red headed girl started going all vocal with the Batman worship and "Why are they chasing him?", the last few years would have been filled with almost nothing but "He's totally setting up Batgirl!" and "No, Robin comes first! He can't do that!" and "But "The Batman" cartoon did it!" and "That cartoon sucked! Fück off and die!" and even more Andre Robin posts. Yeah....
* When the fake Batman's corpse drops down in front of the window, how on earth did he already have that mass of scar tissue after a few days?
* Okay, I get that Batman's ninja-trained and everything, but something that always bugged me (among other things) was how Batman could get into the middle of the cocktail party, behind Joker, without any of the party guests reacting in any way. The ballroom is well-lit, the Joker is surrounded by onlookers, yet Batman is already on the floor when he says his line, "Then you're gonna love me." What gives?
* Everyone was looking at the Joker, that's why.
* And their field of vision doesn't include the two square feet immediately behind the Joker?
* Bats wasn't behind the Joker, he came in from the side. And you'd be surprised what people can miss if they're not looking for something. Also consider, it's not like Batman was just standing there waiting. It's likely he jumped the Joker as soon as he had a clear path, after squeezing his way through the shocked crowd first.
* He could have also dropped down from the ceiling, where no one would have any reason to be looking at all until he descended.
* Why would they alert Joker to Batman's presence? They know an ass-kicking for the evil clown dude is merely seconds away.
* So, none of the people on the ferries had cell phones? I mean, sure, the civvies wouldn't have had the numbers of anyone on the other boat, but the ferry workers probably would have.
* No, it's pretty much confirmed that the people on the ferries had cell phones -- because Lucius Fox, while using the supersonar device, tracks the Joker's voice from audio sources on the ferries (i.e. the civvies' mobile phones) but determines that's not the source of the Joker's signal. On the other hand, even if the people on the ferries could call out, what would it help? The Joker's threatened destruction if anyone tries to get off the boats.
* Yes, but they could have called the other boat and said, "Look, we're not going to blow you up, so you don't blow us up." or something like that.
* In which case they will still get blown up by the Joker when the time runs out, so no matter what deal they make the pressure to go back on it and save themselves goes up by the minute.
* If this one has been discussed further up, apologies, but I had a moment of Fridge Logic: Batman lets himself be framed for Dent's murders so Dent's reputation is preserved. The prime reason for this seems to be so the cases against the five hundred-odd Mob members won't be thrown out (in an earlier scene, Batman calls Dent's stand against organised crime as the first legitimate ray of light in Gotham in decades. Dent himself asks the Mayor to consider what can be done with 18 months or so of clean streets.) But if that's right, then Batman's gesture was either unneeded or futile: the case against the Mob depended entirely on Lao's testimony as their banker, and Lao (it is implied, if not on screen) was killed by the Joker in the fire that burned up the Mob's money. At that point Dent's reputation doesn't make a spot of difference to the RICO case at all.
* Dent's reputation would have affected more than just that case. With Bats taking the blame for the deaths, Dent goes down as a martyr, a hero to the people, and someone to inspire the next DA to live up to. If Dent is implicated in the deaths then, oh well, he was just another whacko, currupt politician. The morale of pretty much everyone in the city goes down from that, and you might find yourself in a worse position than the city was in during Begins.
* Also on this trooper's third viewing of the film earlier this year (I keep meaning to watch it again but I keep slipping) Dent takes Lao to court to testify. You only see the scene before they leave where Dent throws him a bullet-proof vest and mentions they are going to court, but that's enough to show that Lao got his testimony out of the way before his untimely death. Plus the goal was not to convict all 500 hundred of them. Only the top mafia guys could afford to make bail; all the lower and mid-range guys would not be able to afford to make bail, and it was expected that most would plead out when it became apparant their bosses wouldn't come to their rescue (since they aren't making any money because most of their guys on the streets are in prison). With the Joker's spree of terror going on those 490 guys would have some hope of getting let out, but once his efforts to corrupt Batman and Dent failed they had Lao's testimony on record and the prosecuting attorny has just become Gotham's marytr. With no way to discredit Dent's prosecution and Lao's rather damning testimony combined with the Joker's spree still on the minds of many gothamites the RICO case is pretty much decided against the mob.
* So the Joker makes a deal with the three mob leaders; kill Batman and he'll have half of the mob's money. But he doesn't kill Batman, so why does he get the money?
* He, uh, didn't make a deal with the mobsters to kill Batman. That was why he had to walk out with a whole pile of grenades ready to blow in the first place. It was after Batman captured Lao that the mob actually called the Joker, and in that case, it was clear they called him to break Lao out of jail so they could keep their money safe.
* I know he didn't make the deal then, but the mobster who decided to hire him (Chechen?) said 'He's right. We have to fix real problem. Batman'. And it didn't say anywhere that they hired him on different terms.
* But the terms were different at that point, because the police had Lao, which changed everything. As long as Lao was in police custody, their money was literally gone. And that was the problem in the first place: the police and Batman were targeting the mob's money. The Joker solved that by getting their money back.
* What exactly happened to the mob banker after the pin on that gas grenade was pulled? Did I miss the fate of the bank robbery victims?
* It's my guess that the gas simply killed him, and probably everyone else in the bank. To my knowledge, nerve gas is typically invisible to the human eye, but that wouldn't have looked anywhere near as fearsome as Brown Smog of Death TM
* This troper thought that was just a smoke bomb- another example of why the Joker could just as easily be called the Jerkass. People in this troper's theatre were laughing- because you expect, well, his head to be blown off.
* I hadn't thought of that. That actually makes a lot of sense. So it turned out the Joker isn't just an Ax Crazy psychopath...but he's a mean jerk too!
* Well, actually, given that military smoke grenades generally use white phosphorous, what the Joker actually did was set the man's head on fire.
* I always thought that it was Smile-X gas.
* This troper assumed it was a gas-based form of his Joker Venom from the comics.
* Harmless brown gas, folks. The Joker was, get this... playing a joke.
* 'Cause he's an asshole.
* Not wanting to beat a dead horse, but mob banker guy is most likely dead considered how any real smoke grenade gets incredibly hot when releasing smoke, as in scalding hot and combined with getting shot multiple times in the legs I'll count him out. Also Joker is an asshole.
* I assumed it was fear toxin, considering that about a second after it releases you see him react to it and scream slightly.
* I don't think so; there's an in-universe news report on the robbery that mentions nothing about fear gas or any deaths aside from the four other clowns. It's just harmless gas. The banker was probably just freaking out slightly due to the whole 'I thought I was going to explode/who was that crazy bastard/I no longer have knees' thing. The Joker's entire reason for pulling the job was to get attention and annoy the Mob, and that would be less effective if everybody in the bank was dead and thus couldn't report seeing him. Also, he is an asshole who likes to see people squirm.
* I assumed that, based on the Joker's preceding line about how whatever doesn't kill you makes you stranger, that the gas was harmless and nonlethal and was meant to illustrate his point. Also, as the above troper notes, the newsreport would likely have mentioned nerve gas or fear toxin or the like being released in the bank.
* Furthermore, there isn't much reason to believe that it was Joker Gas or whatever. If it was, then it would have been seen later in the movie for sure.
* While we're on the topic of the grenades in the bank, why diden't one of the victims just throw one of their concussion grenades into the bus as it left, or even suicide bomb the robbers in an attempt to saves everyone else?
* Yes, because a whole bunch of scared civilians are gonna keep their cool and hold on to their grenades if someone else's goes off near them. Brilliant plan. And why would they do that? They're still alive when the robbers leave. You think any of them are going to kill themselves just to kill a bunch of crooks?
* In the scene where they track down the Joker by sonar- how do they somehow manage to use sonar imaging to detect his makeup as well as his general bodily location? It doesn't even seem to pick up distinct facial features for anyone else, but really. It might just be to make him more eminently recognisable, but a big blinking arrow over his head reading "THIS IS THE GUY" or something would have been just as easy to program in. Maybe Bruce Wayne's just a tad slow...
* Two thoughts come to mind: Bruce programmed in the bodytype, scars, makeup, and such into the search program to go with the voice match, or the makeup makes subtle changes in sound as it bounces off the Joker's face. Either way, no big for Crazy Prepared Batman.
* It can barely detect facial features on everybody else but it can detect the subtle colour changes in nasty, grimy greasepaint? The first one's a bit more plausible, but still... I'd go with the big blinking neon sign.
* Remember, it also clearly identifies the SWAT team members.
* What's so hard to believe? You're making this too hard, they simply implied which was which. Wouldn't it be pretty obvious to discern the hostages, since they weren't moving, and the SWAT team was moving, plus they were going INTO the building. The Joker could be noticed because he was the only guy on that floor, and the ring of dogs he has makes it painfully obvious.
* The problem isn't knowing which one he is, it's the fact that the screen displayed him with the makeup ON, rather than just as he would look like with it off if it were really working like some ridiculously high-tech echolocation. All right, chalk it up to Viewer-Friendly Interface and presume that Bats is really just that prepared.
* Okay, so the Batpod is cool as hell. But the whole time I kept focusing that cape flapping mere inches above the rear wheel and waiting for something messy to happen. Seriously, couldn't he tuck it in or something?
* They'd better include that in the next movie or something- if there is one. Somebody GRABS that cape and slings him around like a ragdoll. Or it gets caught in a revolving door or something. Or stuck to his shoe.
* Sling him around like a ragdoll? Bane, anyone?
* Obviously Lucius needs to collaborate with Edna Mode.
* And the pairing name, it shall be Ledna. Or Lode.
* One of the special features on the DVD features development of the Batpod, and they had actually thought of this danger. Originally they decided that the memory technology in the cape would allow it to fold up into a backpack shape so it would be out of the way. When they tested the pod using the costume, however, the cape never got snagged in anything, so they abandoned the pack idea.
* After two hours of Thou Shalt Not Kill, Batman tackles Two-Face to his death, and this goes completely without comment? Weak.
* The Moral Dissonance was already there in the first movie, when Batman decided that letting Rah's Al Ghul die in an explosion was totally okay when he could have, say, saved him and had him arrested. The issue of Batman's No Killing rule and his varying respect of it has been raised in the comics over the years, but it hasn't in the new movies... as unbelievable as it may seem to most Dark Knight fanboys: Batman not being called out for his double standards limited some people's enjoyment of the movies.
* The difference is that, despite his rather extreme methods, Ghul wasn't a psychopath. The whole aim of the Joker's psychological assault on Batman is that they are exactly the same, which forced Bruce to realise that he had to take a higher stand and become a true hero. I prefer to see it as Batman's continuing evolution as a hero.
* Uh, Ra's was fully capable of jumping out the window Batman left through in Begins. He chose to die. And in TDK, Batman kinda sorta takes responsibility for killing Two-Face when he says, quite clearly and outright to Gordon, that "I killed these people." Sure, he was taking on the burden in order to keep the streets safe, but at the same time, he is outright admitting to and taking responsibility for killing him, even if the death was unintentional and part of saving Gordon's life.
* I think the last sentence is the most important. It's not like he pulled out a gun and shot Dent in the face, he tackles him to stop him shooting Gordon's kid.
* Also, there's a difference between throwing someone to their death and jumping in to save a kid. He had a chance to save the Joker or not when Joker was plunging to his death. With Two-Face there wasn't as many options, just save the kid or let him die. Likewise when he was fighting through all the fake doctors to rescue the hostages dressed like clowns, any of them could have died in the heat of battle. But he had no other choice. I think this comes down to the decision to kill someone vs. having no other choice.
* Batarangs seem to do the trick in the comics, and Two-Face wasn't even "about" to shoot the kid--his coin was in the air. How hard would it have been to simply elbow him in the face so he could release Gordon's son, and proceed to beat him up? (This is the guy who, moments earlier, tied a bunch of trained SWAT guys together and had made them fall out of a building without killing them.)
* Batarangs: Please, show me where in the movie he ever used batarangs. And as for the SWAT team, he hadn't been shot in the stomach when that happened. Getting a bullet in your gut kind of impairs your ability to fight. And when dealing with the SWAT team, he wasn't immediately dealing with a deranged, armed individual who had a gun to a child's head. Batman only had one goal: get Harvey away from Gordon's kid before he pulled the trigger on the pistol and killed him. He doesn't have time to pull any fancy moves to disarm him.
* Actually, Bats is shown clipping them to his belt and using them in the previous movie (specifically to knock the lights out during his first tussle with Falconi's goons), so it's likely that he had them on hand during this film. That said, shurikens and the like (especially of the size shown of the Batarangs) are more for distraction than incapacitation, and hitting Two Face's hand would've been a difficult task even if he hadn't just been shot, what with the risk of hitting Gordon's kid in the face instead.
* Additionally, from a writer standpoint, even if Batman casually mentions he takes responsibility for Dent's murders, he still killed someone and doesn't even address that, despite this being one of the main points of the rest of the movie. As for killing vs. letting someone die, Alfred made a point of assuring him in Begins that the killer is the only one responsible (in that case, for the Wayne murders).
* "I killed these people." Note the bolded word. These. Meaning he includes Dent in the list of people he has killed. So yes, Batman did address and accept responsibility for the killing of Harvey.
* It's precisely the use of the word "these" that gets me. Is Dent just one of "them?" If Batman doesn't differentiate between people he kills and people whose murder he takes the blame for, that just doesn't scream guilt or anything. As for how much choice he had, for one thing, the scene could have easily been rewritten to allow for a less fatal situation; Batman wouldn't have needed to kill Dent if, say, they left out the whole "punishment" part and Gordon's son was the only person Dent was about to kill (thus freeing Batman up of his wound). For another thing, as I said in the IJBM for the Dark Knight specifically, Batman doesn't have a "no murder" rule; he has a "no killing" rule. The difference is vitally important; otherwise, Batman could potentially level entire buildings full of people without wanting to kill anyone, and his code would be A-okay with that. Realistically, yeah, that scenario probably wouldn't have played out any differently (though if Joker can perfectly time a bus to kill a treacherous mook, as far as I'm concerned, Batman can be an expert with the batarang), but the writers really didn't have to put Batman in that position (or alternatively, Batman could have made it explicit that yeah, he realizes that he killed Harvey Dent, and is genuinely disturbed by this, before moving on to taking responsibility for the other victims).
* Interestingly, I just realized he did exactly that (leveled a building full of people) in Begins. Personally, it's easier for me to think of this an AU kind of thing (where Batman's "no killing" rule is a whole lot more lax) at this point.
* May I remind everyone that, as someone said above, he obviously didn't mean for that tackle to be fatal? Batman doesn't, technically speaking, never kill anyone, even in the comics: he just never * deliberately* kills anyone.
* Citation, please? The reason it's a no-killing rule rather than a no-murder rule is to prevent Batman from getting comfortable with these kinds of "justifications." And even if he doesn't actually have a no-killing rule, he would still have had a stronger reaction to the accidental killing of one of his closest allies (especially when the entire point of Batman's development in the movie is Thou Shalt Not Kill).
* He has said in the comics, "Never intentionally," when asked whether he's ever killed anyone. I'm not one of those people who can give you the exact issue for anything so I don't know exactly where, I think in Detective Comics--I'm sure people on Batman forums can help you out. As for the films themselves, he never explicitly states in them that it is his police never to kill anyone, even unintentionally, so your "Citation, please?" backfires drastically. This is a place to get things off your chest, not to insistently debate things.
* What was he supposed to do, sit down and sob about it for the last two minutes of the movie? In all likelihood he tried to save Harvey, but it's hard to hang with one hand from a ledge while holding onto a man weighing almost as much as you when you've spent the last few hours going all out to battle a lunatic clown and have just been shot. Batman accepted responsibility when he said "I killed these people" and ran off. He knew the cops were minutes, maybe seconds away; he didn't have time to do much more than that if he didn't want to be caught.
* Dark Knight spoilers: Why doesn't Gordon pin the cops' deaths on the Joker or his thugs? There's no evidence linking him to their murders, but there's no evidence incriminating Batman either.
* Because the Joker probably has an alibi already planned out for that. Not to mention that, in a way, pinning those crimes on the Joker is wrong and illegal. Though its also wrong to pin them on Batman, the difference is Batman chose to have them pinned on him, which is really not much worse than what's already happened; it would be next to impossible for Batman to escape the fact that he killed Dent anyway, and since he's already killed one man he can go ahead and take the heat for the others.
* Illegal yes. Morally wrong no. Joker drove Harvey insane with the express purpose of causing him to commit murder, which makes him morally accountable for Two-Face's actions. Hell, if the real story got out it would probably make him legally viable as well. Keeping that in mind blaming him is arguably more moral than blaming Batman, since all they're doing is altering the facts of the case, not the actual innocence or guilt of the Joker.
* Because the Joker was visibly elsewhere at the time some of Harvey Dent's victims were killed. Its either blame Batman or admit Dent did them.
* They couldn't say random thugs or the mob did it? I thought Gotham was a city where stuff like this happens all the time.
* "Random thugs" kill Salvatore Maroni? The head of the Gotham mob? Ditto for two cops and Harvey Dent? You can bet dollars to dinars that having no suspects (which is what those boil down to) would inevitably trigger a massive investigation, which would turn up Harvey's complicity. Batman, meanwhile, is a visible figure who can be accused without any trouble, especially as he was responsible for Dent's death.
* This Troper always assumed the purpose of accepting the murders was twofold: To remove the blame from Harvey and have him 'die a hero' and to make the criminals fear him again. Remember what Maroni said, "You got rules, the Joker, he ain't got no rules." By accepting the blame for the murders Batman lets the mob know that he no longer has a rule about not killing people, and they will fear him again.
* Why is the Batman Gambit named after a guy who loses, repeatedly, to the Joker in Dark Knight? Where was this genius who can defeat anyone short of Dr. Doom with a week's worth of planning? Where was the psycopath without a goal? I saw a pretty clear goal to the Joker's actions: Prove that Gotham was irredeemable. Yeah, the actor was good, but the character, not so much. Same with Batman, who obviously does not understand terrorists' psychology. They won't stop until they've achieved a goal. And some of them just get another one after that.
* ...Erm, because it was named for the interpretation of the character in the comics, not the one in the movie? The way comics are written, and the sheer amount of time Batman has been around and the huge number of hands the character's been passed through make pinning down a definitive Batman or Joker a dicey thing. This Batman isn't terribly experienced still; this is his first encounter with the Joker, when he has no idea what he's like, or indeed what being a comic book superhero is like. One of the major themes here is that the Joker is a new kind of criminal, one representing something other than petty greed or misguided ideals, that Batman has never faced and therefore doesn't understand. And, okay, where was it said that the Joker had no goal? I know he says it, but he lies, all the time. He definitely had a goal in The Killing Joke, which the movie takes inspiration from.
* Ah, alright. This is my first encounter with Batman, and it wasn't such a great one. Hype Backlash and all that.
* One method of making something darker is making the hero less effective and/or the villains moreso; it ups the tension. Try the animated series if you'd like to see Batman being awesome, as well as a general recommendation.
* Did it ever occur to you that those features of Batman and the Joker that you think are important aren't actually required in Batman's stories? Go read some of Batman's Golden Age stories and you'll see a Batman who doesn't really have ultra mega magical intelligence and a Joker who isn't a complete Cloudcuckoolander.
* Am I the only one who thinks that throwing an electronic remote detonater into highly conductive salt water might cause an undesirable explosion?
* I'm a little bit more bothered by the fact that everybody believes the Joker about which detonator does what.
* Probably because the detonator required a key to be turned to activate.
* Highly conductive salt water? It wasn't an ocean, I think it was a river or a bay. I doubt that a bay is conductive enough, but I'll check to see what kind body of water and the salt level in bay water. (Runs off to check sources.)
* IIRC, Gotham = Chicago (plus that's where it was filmed). There are no salt water bodies in that area of the US. Plus, given Gotham's apparent condition, the "water" would have been mostly pollutants anyway.
* Let's see - what EXACTLY did the Joker do? Since there's no way he could have planned that meticulously, we'll assume he was telling the truth about making things up as he went. So...by the time he's drawn "Batman" into the open, he's got at least two abandoned warehouses filled with explosives because...um...you never know when warehouses filled with explosives might come in handy! (The cell phone bomb is realistic enough as a contingency.) So, while the police were occupied, he kidnapped Rachel because (if both he and Batman survived the battle), having Rachel in a room full of explosives might be a good idea. Then he saw a golden opportunity to kidnap Harvey (phenomenally stupid guards, perhaps?) and set up the notorious Sadistic Choice. The rest seems like typical Joker fare, but that whole bit toward the middle...what?!
* "There's no way he could have planned that meticulously." Says who? It was quite obvious that the Joker set up the entire freeway gambit to get him arrested and into the police station so he could get Lao out and then burn him, the Chechen, and half the mob's money in one go. Of course, there's no rational reason for him to do any of this, but that's because he's the Joker.
* He planned not to corrupt Batman into killing him?
* If Batman kills the Joker, then he wins. If Batman doesn't kill the Joker, he continues his plan to grab Lao and blow up the MCU - which means he wins. Xanatos Gambit.
* "Phenomenally stupid guards, perhaps?" No, just Wertz handing him over to the Joker's goons. Which is the whole reason Harvey murdered him later on.
* His goal was to get Batman to kill him, thus proving that everyone is corruptable. And that wasn't a plan. It was a goal. He didn't have a plan to get to that goal. He did have explosives rigged in the warehouses, the hospital, and the ferries, just in case he needed them. He didn't know when he was going to use them, just that he would probably need them. As for the freeway chase, once again, his goal was for Batman to kill him. If he was captured, he had the bomb planted in the thug and had his goons capture Dent and Rachel, just in case. And Dent was just a contingency, in case he couldn't corrupt Batman. He didn't plan this. He just saw a golden opportunity, seeing as how Dent's girlfriend was just killed and half his face was burnt off.
* I begin to wonder how many buildings and public structures are sitting with explosives in/on/under them, that the Joker rigged up but didn't use. . .
* Why does The Joker get so pissed off whenever someone calls him crazy? Given that all other Joker incarnations have gleefully accepted the fact that they're completely Bat-Shit, why is it such a big deal for him?
* Presumably that's a part of how he really got the scars.
* Because the Joker isn't insane. In fact, he's the Only Sane Man.
*
* He's only crazy insofar as you see sanity conterminous with a certain framework of morality. Though nihilistic and violent, he would no doubt take pride in his firm grasp on reality, his deep understanding of psychology, and his complex schemes and experiments. Someone that smart, hard-working and successful certainly wouldn't take kindly to being called crazy.
* con·ter·mi·nous/känˈtərmənəs/Adjective 1. Sharing a common boundary. 2. Having the same area, context, or meaning.
* No charge.
* Why didn't they wash the Joker's face at the police station? Isn't it the first reasonable step towards identifying him?
* My theory is that he isn't wearing makeup, but his face is tattooed.
* See The Dark Knight page for a reasonable answer.
* He isn't tattooed (you see him without the makeup for a split second after he shoots Gordon, and you can see the sweat making the makeup run in some shots), and washing his face isn't going to help ID him unless someone recognizes his face personally.
* Christopher Nolan passed up a great chance to get people hyped for the third movie. For This Troper, the best part of Begins was Gordon's "Escalation" speech, with the foreshadowing of The Joker. In TDK, they could've explained a major plot hole, as to how a random crook could gain access to such a vast array of weaponry. He could've at least been shown opening a crate that said (or ) or had a penguin-logo stenciled-on.
* "vast array of weaponry"? The Joker has a few dozen assault rifles and submachineguns, some grappling hooks, and a single rocket-propelled grenade launcher, and a lot of bombs and timers. You can get that at Omar Al-Terrorist's Discount Generic Soviet Arms Shop, and can manufacture most of the explosives, timers, and radios using easily-acquired chemicals, electronic parts, and a basement lab.
* Which is precisely the point: TDK's Joker is being drawn as a terrorist, and not some lighthearted I-Hate-America mujahid that the Air Force can go after or whose Doomed Hometown could even make him sympathetic to some, but a full play at all the terrifying implications of a Terrorist Without a Cause who does it all For the Evulz. Ledger!Joker just wants everyone to stop kidding around and see that all their laws, all their faith in each other, means nothing next to the fundamental chaos of the universe, and he wants to have as much extremely violent fun proving his point as possible.
* I thought he was getting his weapons from the mafia, they have a reputation for selling those things in real life.
* And part of the point was that the Joker didn't have a vast array of weapons, because he didn't need them to achieve his objectives; he says himself that essentially part of his point is to show how a society can go from functioning and orderly to panicked and chaotic with just one guy with a few everyday items and the willingness to use them creatively.
* I understand why he does it, but isn't the fact that Batman chooses Rachel in The Sadistic Choice, and that Gordon and the other people in the police station at the time know this, a big giveaway to his identity? Surely there's only a few people in the city who would pass up saving the rising star D.A. to save his girlfriend.
* How many people know Bruce Wayne and Rachel Dawes' backstory together? Probably Alfred, maybe Dent and...well, that's probably pretty much it. Given Bruce's facade of dating a different girl every other week, who's going to even remember that the assistant DA was his friend as a kid? Plus, as has been established, by this point everyone knows Bruce as a Rich Idiot With No Day Job, who sleeps all day and parties all night. Who would think that he's Batman solely on the evidence that Batman chose to go after a girl that at one point in the past was a close friend of Bruce?
* Additionally, Batman's identity is kinda clear. Bruce Wayne arrives after years of being thought dead to Gotham, and shortly afterwards, Batman appears. Batman is using really high quality, expensive stuff. You want to tell me nobody has connected the dots? There's not one person with a few hours to spare and a news website and a brain in Gotham? That's something I want addressed in the next movie. Plot idea: Riddler finds out Batman's identity, and starts leaving riddles linked to each other, that lead to his identity. He has to solve the riddles, and find out where they lead, before everyone in Gotham does. Have one of the other people solving riddles be a young police officer called Tim Drake, who used to idolize Batman before he killed a bunch of policemen and Harvey Dent, if you want to include Robin in a good way.
* This Troper would very much like to point out that that is not "a good way" to include Robin. Also, as mentioned, Bruce actively cultivates a public image of "Bruce Wayne: Idjit", i.e., an identity as far away from "potentially Batman" as he can manage, specifically to deflect any possible suspicion.
* One person did connect the dots -- it was a plot point. Probably quite a few people suspect that Wayne Enterprises at least funds Batman, even if they don't link him to Bruce himself.
* Not very many people would even know that Batman was involved in Rachel's rescue at all, IIRC.
* The Joker makes it clear in the interrogation scene that he knows there's something between Batman and Rachel. Anyone who looked into the matter would find out that Rachel and the Batman had a thing going on. There'd be no reason to assume that Rachel and Batman were friends when he's out of the mask. After all, Gordon and Batman are a team, but Bruce Wayne and Gordon barely know each other.
* It doesn't surprise me that the Joker sees the connection. Batman follows her around and thwarts the mob's attempt to murder her in Begins, and then he gives her one of the only doses of the antidote at the end. All of that would have wound up in the police reports.
* I've seen the pencil scene in Dark Knight twice, and both times it looks to me more like Joker shoved the pencil up the guy's nose, but everyone else seems to think it went into one of his eyes. Does anyone else concur?
* It always looks like it's going into his mouth to me.
* You can watch it more times here. I honestly can't tell. The script doesn't say, either... maybe it was meant to be ambiguous?
* It's gotta be the eye. A wooden pencil isn't going to penetrate the throat well enough to kill someone, and Joker would have to bring the head down on a really specific angle for it to have any hope of doing damage through the nose. The eye, by contrast, is a big squishy hole in the face leading directly to the brain.
* Who knows, maybe Joker didn't do anything special with the pencil. He could've just slammed the guy's head on the table while simultaneously making the pencil disappear like a regular magician would.
* Heh. That's funny.
* Does anyone else think that the Joker's plots in this movie come across more like Two-Face plots? There are two ships, with two bombs and two detonators, etc. I've kidnapped two people, and you have a 50/50 chance of saving the person you love. Just seems a little too focused on duality for a movie that also features Two-Face, especially when those very plots are CLASSIC Two-Face.
* The Joker's goal was to create Two Face in essence. It wouldn't surprise me if he chose that to play off Harvey's psyche specifically.
* This Troper never managed to figure out the fingerprint thing, he got that brick but shot another one, analyzed the brick HE SHOT and with the fingerprint he get... An adress? Someone, please, explain it to me.
* It's pure Hollywood Science, but here's the logic behind it: Batman takes the brick with the bullet from the room. He then shoots the same caliber bullet into the same material, with the bullet presumably marked in some way. He then analyzes the bullet he shot to see how the bullet shattered. He then uses that data to virtually reconstruct the bullet he found in the wall. From that, he gets the fingerprint from when the bullet was put in the chamber. He takes the fingerprint and matches it in a Magical Database to find the address.There are so many holes in this that I don't know where to start, but that's the movie's logic behind it.
* Why does Bruce as Batman keep using the bat voice when he's alone with Lucius? Does he absolutely have to use it if he has the cowl on or something?
* It's probably a psychological thing. While he's Batman, he has to sound like Batman. Kevin Conroy did more or less the same thing in the DCAU. He used the Batman voice even when he was alone with people who knew his secret identity, if he was in the suit.
* Hell, he even did it when he was alone in the Batcave with Alfred, not even in costume. It's kind of his "I'm working" voice.
* I think he's staying in the habit. It's important not to let yourself slip up and start talking normal. Bad enough you look like Bruce Wayne. The parts of your face that are visible, anyway.
* And yet, the line "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you" and many others from Batman Begins were clearly Bruce Voice...
* To be fair, he was just starting out, and that particular line was being spoken to someone to whom he previously had a fairly significant emotional connection and who already clearly knew he was Bruce Wayne anyway.
* This is tiny compared to some of the more philosophical complaints, but here we are. Those ballet dancers on the boat? How come they're all C-cupped and up? Have the casting agencies not seen what a Real Life dancer looks like? large breasts and Fan Service aside, this really bugged me.
* Batman must stay in character at all times as Public Bruce Wayne lest his cover be blown. And would the Bruce Wayne the world knows choose any ballerinas to be his companions who do not have large breasts?
* When Coleman Reese is on TV, and the Joker demands he be killed so he can't reveal Batman's identity, why doesn't Reese reveal Batman's identity immediately?
* What, and piss off the Joker more? If he keeps quiet and lasts the hour, he's in the clear. If he deliberately spoils the Joker's fun, well, the Joker's not going to be happy about that.
* In the beginning of the film, when we see the Joker from behind right before he hops in the car with the other bank robbers, he's holding his mask in his hand. So he was just standing on a busy street corner in broad daylight looking the way he does, and nobody seemed to notice. I can chalk this up to the fact that at this point in the story he hasn't begun his campaign of anarchy against the city and is just some weirdo in makeup, but later both the Batman and Maroni imply they know who he is.
* He has his face down. I was going to say that his hair was partially covering his face, but I checked, and it's slicked back. The people on the street would just dismiss him as a clown wearing messy makeup. The real question is why the other clown-masked bank robbers didn't recognize him as the Joker. His face was definitely visible from the car, even though he immediately puts his mask on.
* I figured the guys in the car just assumed he took the job really seriously.
* Something just occurred to me--does the Federal Bureau of Investigation not exist? For all the things the Joker did, and for all the threats he made (like blowing up a hospital, which he actually did; not to mention kidnapping a District Attorney), Gordon and the Chief of Ds would have been kicked aside as the Feds took over and tracked him down in two minutes. This goes beyond the Joker's knack for planning every little thing. Everything he did--pretty much his entire existence as an "agent of chaos"--absolutely hinged on no Federal involvement. Is there any resolution for a glaring and positively huge plot hole?
* I think you're rather overestimating just how effective the FBI would've been. What, precisely, could they have done differently to "track him down in two minutes"? They're not superheroes either. People tend to grossly overestimate how effective federal agencies in general are in fiction.
* Not only that, but it's standard Critical Incident Response for cities to request support, logistical as well as administrative, from nearby cities in the event of a situation that overpowers their ability to respond. Even planned events, like the Olympics in Vancouver, required support from other states and agencies. Think of what a roving natural disaster like the Joker would call up. Does no one in Gotham even consider calling Metropolis to send over Superman, or New York to borrow Spidey for a little Bat support? Failing that, how about you send us some goddamn National Guardsmen with big old tanks!?
* You mean like how the national guard did show up, in uniform and with choppers and bomb squads?
* Most superhero movies up to now operate under the assumption that their hero is the only one in the world. Also, Spidey belongs to a different company entirely. Plus, I'd like to know just how, exactly, tanks would've helped in stopping the Joker. It's not like he's going to war in the streets.
* To say nothing of the fact that by bringing in tanks, you're just daring the Joker to start stealing tanks. Does the Joker in a tank sound like fun to you?
* Moreover, this is a Gotham City. Any neighbouring cities or federal agencies would just be like "Violence in Gotham, what else is new" and only make a token effort to do anything. It's not said in the movie, but perhaps most politicians at the federal level actually want to see Gotham burn to the ground.
* There is a whole slew of tropes dealing with this problem in fiction. Superman Stay Out Of Gotham because he is an utter Game Breaker unless the Joker happen to carry some kryptonite.
* What's the significance of Harvey's nickname? Is it supposed to imply that Harvey is really a double-crossing backstabber, because he never gave that impression at the beginning of the film.
* He used to be in Internal Affairs, which meant, essentially, spying on the other cops. That's why they called him "Two Face."
* During the chase sequence, the 'Pod bursts out of an alley, and the lights mounted with the guns seem to be spinning around the long axis of the bike. Is that what's going on, or is it an optical illusion?
* It's not an illusion. The wheels can actually pivot 360 degrees around the long axis of the Batpod. You can see it again when Batman drives it up the side of a wall and then the 'Pod twists completely around to keep him upright. Presumably it's designed that way so a sideways skid doesn't automatically lead to a wipe out.
* Dent's courtroom scene with the mobster on the stand has him pulling a carbon fiber gun on Dent. Given the tech in the rest of the movie, I have no problem with a gun made entirely out of carbon fiber. Bullets, on the other hand, have been mostly unchanged since about 400 BCE. How would he get a bullet past the metal detector?
* Yeah, its not like the fact that the Gotham mob having a huge part of the police force in their pocket is a major plot point or anything. It would be thoroughly impossible for them to smuggle weapons past security.
* Then what's the point of the carbon fiber gun if he can sneak bullets past? Why not a real gun?
* The bullets may have been made of ceramic, or some such hard but non-metallic material. They may shatter, but they only really have to go a couple feet and penetrate the skull, it's certainly possible.
* I think a bigger problem with this scene is the way the gun didn't' fire. Seriously, why did it misfire?
* Because it was a crappy gun, as evidenced by the fact that Dent points out it is a crappy gun.
* Something that literally hit made me scratch my head and wonder is how Harvey survived the crash in the scene where he spares Maroni but shoots his driver. Even if he jumped out the window, he would have at the very least been injured. The car flipped literally seconds after Harvey shot the driver.
* Harvery very clearly puts on his seatbelt as he's saying he's about to shoot the driver. Putting on your seatbelt does a lot to help you survive in a rollover.
* Is no one bothered by the fact that at the end of the movie, Batman and Commish Gordon commit blatant obstruction of justice by covering up Harvey Dent's crimes? Forget about the people of Gotham losing hope -they aren't little kids, after all- Bats and Gordon are actually proving the Joker right by shuffling off their code at the first sign of this perceived "trouble." And believe it or not, Moral Guardian media reviewing website Plugged In was one of the few reviewers to actually pick up on this in their review:
*
* They have a choice between covering up Dent's crimes, or letting all kinds of bad things happen ( at the very least, all the surviving mobsters would be freed ). Yes, the movie takes the point of view that the truth is not always the most important thing. Is this really any more of a Family-Unfriendly Aesop than all the bad things ordinary people end up doing at the prompting of the Joker? Also, Bruce doesn't have any "code" that says "don't lie." His code has stuff like "help others", "save lives," and "make Gotham a better place."
* Yeah, the Moral Guardian website picks up on it, because it's their job to nitpick anything that doesn't fit into either Wholesome American Values c. 1953 or an uber-conservative version of the Bible. The Ten Commandments aren't going to govern a Batman script, and nowhere in any Batman canon are the commandments really central to his character except for "Don't kill."
* Seconded. Batman will lie to people, cheat people, and beat the crap out of people, but he won't kill them. Everything else goes. His goal was to keep the murderers and other criminals imprisoned by Harvey in jail; if he needs to lie to do that, fine.
* Not to get too off-topic, but the whole point of that website is to inform people, particularly those with kids about what is in films. Better to be overly thorough than to leave stuff out that someone else might consider important to know.
* Ahem. Original poster here. I would like to take this moment to explain that the reason I cited Plugged In was because it is an often overlooked source that picked up on this, and I posted on this page because I was looking for an opinion on my statement. What I got was a sarcastic tirade about the purpose of Plugged In. Anyhow, I think there's another headscratcher somewhere on this page that talks about Harvey Dent's charges. But regardless, I'm pretty sure it would have made things a lot easier for everyone to just say "Oh, the Joker made Dent go crazy and go on a murder spree, but the Commish managed to stop him before he could kill more people. Too bad ol Harv' is dead. Oh, and Batman was there too." But the fact remains that Gordon and Batman committed obstruction of justice, abandoning their "code," as the Joker puts it, i.e., the law, at the first sign of trouble, even if the perceived trouble is patently ridiculous.
* I'll point out that not only did Plugged In's reviewer love Batman Begins, but their point is the same reason why The Dark Knight is featured as an example on Family-Unfriendly Aesop. That picture of Bane tearing up a picture of Harvey's in The Dark Knight Rises suggests the plan is just going to fall to pieces anyway, if framing yourself for murder to cover up another man's crimes was even worth it in the first place.
* To the OP, Gordon and Batman didn't abandon their "code" at all. Batman has always been about doing the right thing, but understanding that he is just a tool to make Gotham a better place and will eventually go away when Gotham no longer needs him. Gordon himself also follows the spirit of the law more than the letter; he works with Batman, who is legally a vigilante and "the law" dictates that he should be arrested for that, he works wth a police department filled with people suspected of being corrupt because in Gotham he is the only honest cop there is, and the common thread between both actions is that he is doing things for the good of the people of Gotham. Covering up Dent's crimes follows that; seriously there is no good that comes out of revealing it; every single criminal Dent locked up in his entire career will be set free, the people of Gotham will loose hope and fall back into the same state after the Wayne's were murdered that made Gotham what it is today, anyone who wants to believe that people are good will look at what happened to Harvey Dent and see that even the White Knight of the city could fall so far, what hope is there for anyone else? Not to mention that the police force would be demoralised and the Mob will get a second wind and undo every single victory Gordon and Dent had worked so hard for. It's not about blind adherence to rules, it's about doing what's right.
* Joker wants to prove that everyone can be corrupted. Batman doesn't kill him, so he admits that Batman is truly incorruptible. Than Batman goes ahead and kills Harvey Dent. So what, that's it? Joker won? Batman broke his one rule, got corrupted?
* It's been suggested that Batman didn't mean to kill Dent. After all, he'd dropped people from similar heights before without killing them. He was just acting on impulse to try and save James Jr. When it comes to Batman's other 'murders', it could be that the Joker knows full well that Two-Face did the killings. He knows pretty much everything that happens in Gotham, and he had a personal interest in Dent as his little pet project, so I don't think it would be unreasonable to say that he somehow knows the truth. What he would do or say when he learned that Batman copped to the killings is left to speculation, however...
* Except it was slightly more complex than "Batman goes ahead and kills Harvey Dent". A physically exhausted Batman tried to save both Harvey and the kid, but didn't have the strength for both. Joker did win, but in the sense that Gotham's white knight was now just as dark as everyone else, and her dark knight is now being pursued for murder. Technically, Batman still hasn't killed anyone.
* How is the Batpod assembled? It shoots right out of the left side of the tumbler, but uses both front tires. Either the tumbler has an extra wheel just for the batpod, or it's a bloody Transformer. And don't get me started on how the guns pop out of nowhere...
* Again, the "special features" on the second disc cover this. The driver's-side wheel pops out first, followed by the passenger's-side wheel, which fixes itself onto the back of the 'Pod. (However, it all happens so fast that it's nearly unnoticeable without freeze-framing.) The guns are presumably concealed under all that cowling...remember, the Tumbler was made for military purposes. A) it has to have an 'eject' function in case of IE Ds, and B) that eject function has to be at least somewhat lightly armed.
* Security tells Fox that Batman broke into R&D. Doesn't Bruce Wayne have the authorization to enter his own R&D department without breaking in?
* No, Security tells Fox that something's happening in R&D. Bruce didn't have to break in, but someone noticed that someone had set up a huge computer system and everything that was using electricity.
* When one of the clowns is grazed by the bank manager's last shell, he angrily asks Joker where he learned to count. Why would he think a (supposedly) average thug would actually know the magazine capacity of that shotgun model?
* Five shells is pretty much the standard capacity of a shotgun magazine, absent an extended magazine (which a sawed-off shotgun wouldn't have) or a rod to reduce the capacity (which wouldn't apply here, since those are used to maintain hunting regulations).
* This isn't exactly a problem with the plot, but I can't think of any better way to describe it than that it just bugs me: In the scene that introduces Harvey Dent in all his crime-fighting glory, Dent hits that two-bit mook with a right cross, takes his gun away and dismantles it while telling him to buy American next time... after said mook got his gun out, aimed it at his head and pulled the trigger. It's certainly plausible, but it just bugs me that a cheap gun malfunction is all that saved Dent from getting his head blown off in the scene that's supposed to establish him as a potent, crime-fighting powerhouse.
* ....and? It drives home a very real fact: no matter how badass you are, if some jerk with a death wish gets the drop on you, you're dead. It can happen to Dent, and it can happen to Batman, too.
* Okay, that makes sense. It just didn't feel like it was trying to drive that home -- the most (overt) we get down that road is Harvey's "I'm fine, by the way," with the emphasis on how awesome he is. So I was a bit confused.
* Well, the fact that he wasn't even slightly rattled after coming within a gnat's wing of being shot in the face has to count for something...
* It does show his fearlessness, but one thing that struck me later as Fridge Brilliance is that it also shows his weakness: he doesn't really understand how dangerous a game he's playing, and he doesn't appreciate that he was only saved by blind luck. Later, after he's lost everything, it all hits home with a vengeance, and that's when Two-Face's belief in chance as the great equalizer is born.
* On a side note to this topic, it just occurred to me that it was possible that the gun was deliberately faulty. I mean, think about it, it's rare (maybe not rare, but certainly unusual) for guns of even poor quality to malfunction if probably loaded. What if the mob witness (I forget his name) had been given a gun that he, and his superiors, knew was faulty? They weren't trying to kill him at all, just scare him off. After all, killing a DA in a courtroom in front of that many witnesses would probably get you a life sentence at least. Who would agree to that? But attempted murder would get you a considerably shorter sentence and the guy would be able to reap his rewards upon leaving jail.
* On the other hand, any mafia button man who's willing to get a life sentence for his boss is going to be set up for life. He's going to find himself extremely well taken care of in prison, particularly in a corrupt city like Gotham where even the prison guards are probably in the mob's pocket. The few inmates who don't fear and respect the guy who had the brass to shoot the DA in the face in the middle of the courtroom are going to find themselves with a knife in the back if they try to mess with him. Prison might just be a long vacation.
* Alternativly that guy just screwed up big time and was given a choice between concrete shoes and a swim in the harbour or killing Harvey Dent.
* Hong Kong. Wouldn't Gotham's media go crazy over the fact that their superhero was in another country? Yes, it was a once-off visit for Gotham's benefit, but even then the media should be asking questions.
*
* What would they go crazy about? Batman hasn't exactly signed an exclusive contract or anything with the city or anything. And the media is already asking all kinds of questions about Batman.
* The only people who saw him, really, are Lau's men. Even if they told someone, remember Dent snarking that Lau's "travel plans are not [Gotham's] concern"?
* Even if the media knew about it, Batman is doing nothing more than extraditing a criminal back to Gotham for prosecution. No different than if Scarecrow had fled to a neighboring city/state and Batman had brought him back.
* Oh no, extradition involves transfer of criminals through a legal process. Batman simply went to Hong Kong and nabbed Lau's ass, since the Chinese wouldn't allow one of their citizens to be extradited to the US.
* There was a lot that bothered me from the hospital scene (the aforementioned impossibility of the Joker's bombs being planted for one), but nothing stuck out more than the way the doctors had covered Dent's face. In real life, they would definitely have his head fully wrapped than lightly place a thin layer of gauze on the side that was burned. Aside from the impracticably, it's just down right cruel. If I were a burn victim, I'd feel taunted if someone did that to me.
* Harvey has been refusing treatment. And this being the Joker, the bombs were probably dispersed through the building hidden in... I don't know, get-well-soon flowers? Stuffed animals? Medical supply boxes? It's likely the building was wired to blow before he ever made the threat.
* Not really a big one; but who makes Joker's clothes? Does he hire a goon to do it or does he sit at home next to a sewing machine making them (I prefer the latter for LOL purposes)
* Would a purple suit really be that hard to find? Beyond that, The Joker mentions that he bought it ("And by the way; the suit wasn't cheap. You autta know, you bought it.")
* "You bought it," could be referring to the materials. Gordon says his clothing is all custom, no labels, so he probably had it custom made by a tailor (who he probably paid, then killed anyway).
* The "You Bought It" is a joke. Joker's been stealing their money, and since the heist has acquired a bright purple suit.
* Heck, for all we know, Joker just sewed it himself. Maybe he likes to sew things when he's not busy killing people.
* He was able to sew a bomb inside of a human being and keep them alive afterwards, so there's some evidence of sewing/suturing skills.
* A bomb and a cellphone.
* (shudder)
* The Grinch is good with a Singer; why not the Joker?
* When he's in custody why does the Joker still have his makeup on? In the Nolanverse Joker's face isn't chemically bleached like in most other versions, he is specifically stated to be wearing makeup and we see him without it in a scene. During the booking process wouldn't they take the makeup off in order to take accurate booking photos?
* One reason I can think of is that before they could get to taking a mugshot of him, they got the information that Harvey and Rachael were missing, and instead they opted postponing going through with it in order to interrogate him as to their whereabouts.
* Plus they had literally just finished taking him to the station after having all of their resources stretched to the near-breaking point, the simple answer is that they hadn't gotten to the booking process yet because they had to secure all of his goons, go over all his weapons, and make sure they had every base covered before going through the procedures since the slightest slip-up would be seized by the mob's lawyers.
* Harvey says “you either die a hero or live to become the villain.", so does that mean that because Batman was never the public hero, and he will not use the sonar system to spy on people, he will never be corrupted like Harvey was? But at the same time, if Alfred had let Bruce read the note that Rachel wrote, would he have gone bad like Dent? How is anyone’s faith being rewarded by lying to them? What did the joker threatening to blow up boats have to do with spying on people, except that it pointed out that they needed to spy on people in order to get the bad guys? Why did Harvey Dent accuse Gordon of making a deal with the devil? If the device that was used to spy on people was used to save the day, why did they destroy at the end of the movie?
* Okay, that's a lot of difference questions. Bruce probably would have quit being Batman if he had read the note; Harvey went bad because he lost everything that mattered to him, while Bruce at that point still had a father-figure in his life. Bruce's faith in Rachel was rewarded by Alfred not breaking the news to him that she wasn't waiting for him, since the truth would have been more devestating and there's no reason to let him know since Rachel is gone. Joker's blowing up the boats had nothing to do with the spying, Batman justified the spying in order to stop the Joker, but everyone involved knew that it was simply unethical and too much power to be put into anyone's hand, since power corrupts. Hence why Batman destroys it at the end; he created it soley to stop the Joker and destroyed it to prevent it from being abused. Harvey accused Gordon of making deals with the devil in relation to the rest of his unit, since they were both betrayed by corrupt Officers, just like Harvey brought up with the first meeting with Batman.
* Two questions: 1. How come when Batman caught the Joker with his grapple gun, it didn't result in killing him from the sudden stop? 2. Joker decides Batman must love Rachel because he jumped out the window to save her. But what's to say he wouldn't have done that for any hostage dropped out a window? What makes that act so special?
* Presumably there was enough give to slow down Joker's momentum enough to not kill him. And his exact words "the way you threw yourself after her" showed that Joker noticed just the slightest bit that Batman clearly had something for Rachel.
* Does anyone else think the theme about "Truth versus Faith" seem like a really awful lesson? I mean, it suited the circumstances, but otherwise, it's a pretty dishonest moral.
* Family-Unfriendly Aesop
* If nearly all of Gotham's cops are corrupt, where do all the SWAT teams come from? What about all the other cops? I remember there being two corrupt officers who kidnap Harvey and Rachel one of whom was being blackmailed, but it seems like most of the rest are honest. Is Gotham's reputation just that bad?
* It may not be that the actual majority of the cops are crooked, but the ones in important positions are crooked. Also, there's degrees of crookedness--not all of them are going to be at the "actively collaborating with mobsters" level.
* And even good cops aren't omnipotent. Maybe they don't know that the guy giving them orders is being bought.
* In the fight in the construction site, did Batman really have to beat up every single SWAT officer present? No simpler, non-violent way like telling them which hostages are which?
* They were breaching a room with armed "suspects." They would not have stopped to listen to Batman.
* He tied them up and hung them from the side of the building. That was probably the most "non-violent" way he could have stopped them, and despite how it sounds describing it, it was a pretty harmless ordeal.
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