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| - __NOWYSIWYG__ Whilst page deletions would normally go through a VfD, I figured this was more deserving of a proper discussion on the War Forum, given that there was a significant amount of discussion regarding the page's deletion when it was first proposed. I am proposing that we delete the page Forum:Toph Candidates. The information on this page is not at all objective; anyone who wishes to do so can add their name as a possible candidate for playing Toph in TLA2. It is not an encyclopedic listing of actresses that are under consideration by the producers to potentially play Toph, but a list of people that fans favor for the role, or are themselves campaigning to play Toph. The role of the wiki is not to exist as place that people and users can use to convince others they are right for the role; if I decided to start a campaign to play Long Feng, would that warrant a page on the wiki. No. It is not encyclopedic, and irrelevant to the goals of the wiki. If I want to convince others, I could start a blog; a separate page is overkill. Much of the support before for keeping the page centred around the fact that "Who will play Toph?" was an important topic for the Avatar community. Regardless of whether this is still the case, given the ambiguity over whether TLA2 will happen, such a page cannot be anything but speculation and fan opinion. We have no indication that any of the people on the list are under consideration for the role, and no way to judge whether one person is better placed for the role than another. This page is not objective, and consists entirely of speculation. This wiki should exist as a place for established information on the franchise, not as a place for speculation and certainly not as a place for people to campaign for film roles. I have no qualms with people campaigning for film roles, but I do not think wiki articles are the place to do that. 20:27, December 10, 2012 (UTC) Support the deletion. The page is not encyclopedic at all, and we don't know the existence of The Last Airbender 2 for now, moreover since the page is full of speculation. I'm sorry, but I can't say it on writing, but my mind support it. 09:37, December 11, 2012 (UTC) I don't know. I do certainly see your point, but on the other hand, the "encyclopedic" argument is kind of rendered moot by the fact that it is a forum page and not an official page. The page is still in use, meaning that there are still people that check it, and thus the old reasons on which it was created in the first place, probably still stand. I say we leave it there for now, especially since Hasdi's blog from a while back that indicated that there is a good chance the second movie could still be made. It if turns out it doesn't, when the movie is officially put down, we can still delete the page. 08:10, December 14, 2012 (UTC) But it isn't really a forum page since no discussion takes place. There's no discussion on the merits of one person over the other, or discussion of who would be better for the role. If the page isn't being used as a forum, then saying we should keep it because it is a forum page falls flat. Either way, if someone wishes to put themselves forward as a candidate, a blog would be a much better place to do it, as evidenced by Raiden's recent blog. The page as it exists is just a page for anyone to put down their name as a possibility, with no guidelines on whether a name should or should not be on there. I view that as unencyclopedic, when the page's content is driven solely by fan opinion without any objective means to judge its validity. Regarding the future of TLA2, what if it is revealed that M. Night is working on another film, but no indication is given on whether TLA2 has been axed. Until there is official confirmation, people will always say there is a possibility. We should judge the page in the here and now, and right now, with no official confirmation that TLA2 is happening, the page is unnecessary. If TLA2 does get official confirmation, then a proper article can be made with objective listings, or people can use a blog to put their name down as a candidate. 11:34, December 14, 2012 (UTC) I believe the page was a discussion, or maybe a page where we can discuss on elsewhere, and the outcome placed on that page. But in any case, I don't think we should keep this page as it is rather unclear what does the page stand for.However, the page is kind of speculation, though it was a forum page, but we can't see a clear discussion and a certainty from M. Night how is the sequel's growing. Just my thoughts. 13:00, December 14, 2012 (UTC) Acer, the page has always been speculation. It was made as speculation, so how can that now be an argument pro-deletion? HoT, you do have a point, but that doesn't change anything about the reasons the page was created on. They still count now, even if it has been that long a time. 19:08, December 15, 2012 (UTC) The page was created containing speculation; why should that mean it shouldn't be deleted. We have always maintained a policy of not allowing speculation, so why should we allow an exception in this case. If an article that had been made several years ago contained a piece of speculation that had been there since it was made, would we allow it to stay? I don't see how "it has always been speculation" is a justifiable reason to allow the page to remain, when "it is speculation" is a regular reason for removing information. 21:54, December 15, 2012 (UTC) The premises on which it was created haven't changed, so what's the rush to get rid of it? You cannot compare it to speculation on any other article as they are both created to be something different. The articles are made to be encyclopedic. This was made to avert comments about Toph's actress away from the comment section on the film pages. The fact that the page is still edited now and again, means that there are still people who would otherwise comment on the film pages. 22:03, December 15, 2012 (UTC) Sure, it's speculative, however this unofficial forum listing was created with the sole purpose and intent of fan discussion of the film in a community-editable space - which is probably why they did not make a blog, since the creator and respective admins are the only ones who could edit such blog posts. At the time, forum pages were the only unofficial community-editable space that could be used in 2010 - they did not have the new forum boards, for example, the Ba Sing Se University boards for discussion of the series. The page itself is not part of the official War Room forum, where important community discussions take place, thus discounting it for removal under those grounds, and the standards for speculation on mainspace articles does not apply to forum pages. And due to the consistent activity on the page over 2 years, and the still wide-open TLA2 issue, I am against its removal. KettleMeetPot • wall 22:12, December 15, 2012 (UTC) @Lostris - Who is going to play Toph is no longer a burning question that is overwhelming the comments, so yes, the premises have changed. As for editing still happening, the only things that happen are users adding their names onto the list, or people adding actresses they consider would be good for the role, with no objectivity or measure of validity on whether those name should be added. As I said before, this would be better placed on a blog; it would be a better place for people to state they think they/others would be good the role, and would also avert comments from film pages if such a thing occurred. We have other means for achieving this, that work better and are consistent with existing guidelines on the addition of fan opinion. @KMP - What discussion? There is no discussion happening. No one discusses the merits of one over the other, people just add names as they please. If the intent is to generate discussion, then a blog is better placed for that. If the page is not being used for its sole purpose, then it is unnecessary. 22:27, December 15, 2012 (UTC) It may not be as hot as it used to be, but the fact that the page is still edited proves that it still sparks interest, so no, the premises have not changed. Lessened perhaps, but not changed. About the blog, KMP refuted that already. Besides, keeping it all grouped is far more logical than having them all put out a blog. The page is not put forward as an encyclopedic page, so I don't see why the "non-encyclopedic" argument can be used to warrant its deletion. It's never meant to be that, so that really can't be used. It is fine for now until TLA 2 is permanently shot down. 22:33, December 15, 2012 (UTC) I'm not, nor have I ever been, talking about a blog containing the information on the page, and I see nothing wrong with each person creating their own blog, same as how every review of the Korra finale had its own blog, even though there was a lot of repetition. Pages that have been created before containing solely fan opinion have been removed. This page has been renamed a forum page because apparently it was supposed to be a place to discuss the issue, but no discussion takes place. It is not acting as a forum, so we cannot say "its a forum, therefore it is protected from being deleted for these reasons". It might be named a forum, but it isn't acting as one. "It is fine for now until TLA 2 is permanently shot down." - and if that never happens? We just keep the page, and people keep randomly adding names as they please? The guideline used elsewhere is that a page is kept if it is relevant now, not because it might be relevant later on. The page is only relevant on the basis TLA2 happens, so until this is confirmed, it is not needed. 22:58, December 15, 2012 (UTC) Same logic, different view: As long as TLA 2 is not shot down, it still serves a purpose. Anyway, I guess it's up to other people to actually participate in this forum, as there is nothing either of us will be able to say to persuade the other, and I don't really feel like making this into a giant forum where both parties keep repeating themselves. 23:04, December 15, 2012 (UTC) I used the term "discussion" loosely - perhaps "collaboration" would be better, since that is an objective that the forum page fulfills up until this day. The page itself was and is a joint effort by many users to tabulate information for Toph, and remains active. The reasoning behind our deletion policy for canon and fanon - the forefronts of the site - is to keep them as professional as possible... However this does not apply to informal discussion-and-collaboration oriented forum pages. Note that any and all forum pages deemed as unsuitable in the War Room proper are never deleted - just closed, unless ofc it is pure vandalism. Even in the new forum system, they are closed and not outright deleted, and to my knowledge, no forum page of legitimate concern from the beginning of our system to now has ever been deleted - and here, there are more than a few users that thought it was worthwhile, if you check the history. So far, you have not fulfilled your onus to put down proper reasons why it should be outright deleted, especially when there are and were users who believed that it was worth contributing to in any small or large way. For the community which worked on and ratified this page, it was a legitimate form of expression for a forum page, and I doubt that has changed 2 years later. As such, I will leave it to others to put in their opinion to sway the debate, as I doubt anything more can be said on my part. KettleMeetPot • wall 23:34, December 15, 2012 (UTC) This page did not start as a forum. It was originally created as a normal page, then went through VfD to which there was consensus to delete the page, but instead it was made a forum page, for reasons I do not know. I gave my reasoning before on why it should be deleted, on the basis that, despite being a forum page, the page does not contain any discussion, and thus applying the rules of what would and would not happen for forum pages is not applicable. The fact is, the page is not a forum, and thus should not be considered a forum page. Collaboration - in what way. Names that are added are not done so objectively, by which I mean there is confirmation that they are under consideration, rather people add names as they please. In essence, the page exists as a place for people to say "I want to play Toph/I want this person to play Toph". Such a page is in my view unnecessary. You can keep saying the words discussion and collaboration, but I see no evidence this occurs. So to sum up my reasoning: 1.
* the page may be called a forum, but as it does not act as a forum (that is, a place to generate discussion on a topic), the rules for forum pages do not apply, and thus the page should not be protected from deletion 2.
* there is no objectivity in how names are added, and thus the page is full of fan opinion 3.
* the page is only relevant on the basis that TLA2 happens, and since we have no official confirmation this is the case, the page is currently unnecessary 4.
* if people wish to present themselves/others as candidates, or wish to garner support for their campaign to play Toph, they can do so in a blog, which I will add, would probably serve the purpose better than the page currently does, as evidenced by Raiden's blog I linked above, giving opinions on who could play Korra 5.
* if the forum exists as a way to avert comments on film pages (which I find an iffy reason since no discussion/commenting occurs on the page), blogs as the ones I stated above would serve this purpose better (as people can actually comment) This is my reasoning. I believe my onus is filled (which sounds dirtier than it should). 00:02, December 16, 2012 (UTC) Ideally, we could make a forum about any sort of speculation. Since Korra premiered there has been constant speculation and debate over everything and anything feasible. People have theorized about Amon's identity, Korra's true love interest, whether or not Asami was really an Equalist, etc. You could go on and on about what people have been speculating, and make a forum for everything worth a good discussion. But obviously, that's not the way we do things (on the canon side). Speculation, debate, and theory are kept limited to blogs and comments; everything else is either concrete fact or community discussion. Is a candidate for Toph factual and concrete information? No. Is it a community discussion? No (it's a list). I guess the forum was made before the wiki worked this way, since back then there wasn't a huge amount of debate so a divide between speculation and information was never really needed. Of course, there is a divide now, and it wouldn't make sense to single this particular discussion out as the one where the divide does not apply. We don't have forums for stuff like Bolin's new love interest, so it would be odd to leave this as is. Per HoT - delete or make it a blog. 00:53, December 18, 2012 (UTC) The reason it wasn't made into a blog is to allow others to edit the page. Otherwise, I would have hosted it myself a long time ago. Other options are move to Fanon namespace (good as it enable comments), place it on a user page, or put it on another wiki willing to host a discussion structured like this. — Hasdi Bravo • 17:58, December 18, 2012 (UTC) Moving it to fanon would be better, though I'm still not convinced we need a whole page for this. It doesn't cover a particularly significant topic and is not really a discussion of any sort. The traffic is low, so it wouldn't be difficult to manage as a blog even if others can't edit it (and that's how other things like this are normally done anyway). 23:32, December 19, 2012 (UTC) The topic isn't significant to you, but not to others. The real question is should Avatar Wiki be hosting this discussion. I think if the comments are enabled, the discussion will flow better. Let's just move it to the Fanon namespace, since the Forum namespace is probably going to archived by wikia at some point. If nobody is willing to be the fanon owner, put it under my name. If you still think it doesn't belong here, then we'll just move it to another wiki. — Hasdi Bravo • 13:00, December 20, 2012 (UTC) Since you are the leading expert on this wiki when it comes to the movie, I guess that it makes sense to move it to the fanon namespace under your name. Or even better, make it under the since it is editable by all to promote discussion. It has to be done rather quickly as well indeed, as KMP is laying the last hand to the fixes needed to maintain the War Room in it's current form while having the other forums under the new system. 13:03, December 20, 2012 (UTC)
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