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| - Since then, some on Wookieepedia have been taken with the opinion that "the rebellion"—which is to say, the coordinated efforts of rebel cells prior to "Secret Cargo," the Season Three episode that marked the formation of the Rebel Alliance—represents a distinct, pre-Alliance faction of its own. The thinking there, which I'm sure will be elaborated upon in this thread, is that because we have heard references to "Early rebel movement" and "Rebel Command" and "Rebel intelligence" before the formal foundation of the Rebel Alliance, then those represent distinct entities. I disagree with this point of view and think it's very obvious that while "the rebellion" or phrases like "Early rebel movement" in canon sources do indeed represent the coordinated efforts of rebel cells like Phoenix Squadron and the Massassi group, it does not mean that it is a faction. In Wookieepedia article terms, "the rebellion" is basically the Prelude/Origins section of the Rebel Alliance page. This line from one of the Visual Encyclopedias was quoted earlier today on a talk page debate about this: The crew of the starship the Ghost begins challenging the Empire long before they learn about a larger rebel organization. While fighting back on the planet Lothal, their defiant deeds come to the attention of rebel leaders - who are uniting the patchwork cells into a more formal Rebel Alliance. The other side of this debate believes that the use of the word "organization" means that "the rebellion" is a faction in its own right. On the contrary, I think it's clear that the keywords here are "who are uniting the patchwork cells into a more formal Rebel Alliance." It's saying that there isn't one united faction until the formation of the Rebel Alliance, and that what comes before that are the beginning days of coordinated efforts that lead to the Alliance. I am, therefore, of the opinion that: 1.
* The rebellion should be merged into Alliance to Restore the Republic. Anything about the early days of rebel cells that joined with the Alliance and coordinated efforts between them would go into a Prelude/Origins section. Anything after the events of "Secret Cargo" goes into the History proper, after the Origins. 2.
* We merge pages that are reflective of the idea that the rebellion is its own entity. That includes Rebel Command and Rebel intelligence, which were early efforts for what became Alliance High Command and Alliance Intelligence but are not separate factions. 3.
* We treat Phoenix Squadron, Massassi group, and other rebel cells (only those that are known to have become part of the Alliance) as their own factions until the formation of the Rebel Alliance, at which point they are considered sub-factions of the Alliance. I think it's clear that "the rebellion" is not a separate faction. What are your thoughts? - Brandon Rhea(talk) 21:15, October 20, 2017 (UTC)
* As I've been saying I disagree, especially after Leia, Princess of Alderaan of seeing how Bail, Breha and Mothma are really guiding the pre-Alliance organization, they have connections with the cells, they even discuss what to do with Saw's Partisans. In Rebels we heard about the larger rebellion and TVE confirms that there's larger rebel organization, some sources name it the rebellion, organization, network, etc. I don't have a problem with renaming the page, but the page should stay. We see that there's a Rebel Command and Intelligence and those are the divisions of the network/movement, they coordinate with several rebel cells, they follow orders from Command or Fulcrum agents. The organization may be a loosely connected between members, but its been clear that they're under the guidence of a leader, to which the follow orders or hear their reports. On Ahsoka (novel), Bail mentions that they needed to recruit more people, and the intelligence network contact other operatives around the galaxy. That alone is a sign that its not just Bail's cell, its a joint effort of a larger movement. After Secret Cargo events this network becomes the Alliance, in which they officially unite all together having more connection between units.--DarthRuiz30 (talk) 21:29, October 20, 2017 (UTC)
* I agree with what Brandon is saying, and I've always thought it was silly that we had separate articles for what all intents and purposes is the same thing. The rebellion and the Rebel Alliance are inseparable; it's just a matter of when they formally adopted the term Alliance to Restore the Republic. Kind of what Brandon is saying above, the closest comparison I can think to make here is how we format our battle articles. "The rebellion" is basically the Prelude section of [[Alliance to Restore the Republic]]. There's no need to separate them between two pages. The sheer silliness of this is illustrated in the fact that we're arguing whether "Rebel pilot (rebellion)" is different from "Rebel pilot". Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 21:48, October 20, 2017 (UTC)
* Its still not the same, or are we saying the Rebel Alliance and the NR is the same, its basically a rename of the organization too. What I mean is that it is a pre-Alliance, without this movement it would've never appeared, but it had some faction characteristics that separate it from being just the same. The leadership of Bail and Mothma and the power of overseeing what's going on with other cells, its prove that this evolved to the Alliance.--DarthRuiz30 (talk) 21:53, October 20, 2017 (UTC)
* Nope, your comparison doesn't work, for no other reason than the New Republic signed a different charter legitimizing themselves as a separate organization from the Rebel Alliance. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 21:54, October 20, 2017 (UTC)
* Indeed. And to the points that Ruiz mentioned in his original post, all of those sources are talking about a growing network of individual cells that was formalized as one faction in 2 BBY as the Alliance to Restore the Republic, after the rebel cells arrived at Dantooine. People like Mon Mothma and Bail Organa were the ones working on the coordination of those efforts. Keep in mind what Mothma said in "Secret Cargo," at the end of which the Alliance was founded. She said, "We're in the process of building an alliance, uniting the various rebel cells across the galaxy." I emphasized the words "process of building" because she's saying that a formal, united organization hasn't been created yet. - Brandon Rhea(talk) 21:55, October 20, 2017 (UTC)
* Ruiz, your whole argument seems to be hinging on the fact that because sources use the term "organization" for the pre-Rebel Alliance that this is automatically a completely different, separate entity from the Rebel Alliance that it evolved into, so therefore it needs different articles. But that doesn't change the fact that the pre-Alliance and the Rebel Alliance are the same side of the same coin. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 21:59, October 20, 2017 (UTC)
* Yes, they're building the alliance its not working as we see it on Ep IV or VI. But LPOA points that there's already sort of organization in which they lead it, they even do meetings to discuss what to do next. And yes is not a formal organization as the Alliance is, since members of it sometimes don't even know about what's the panormaic of the galaxy, they receive orders from Fulcrum agents like the Ghost crew did, and later on by orders of Bail Organa. There's a organization that do this, is not just Organa on his free time, they want to formalize the rebellion, but meanwhile they're working with this cells creating a network that one could become the Alliance--DarthRuiz30 (talk) 22:03, October 20, 2017 (UTC)
* Everything you just described there is epitomizing what a Prelude section is. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 22:06, October 20, 2017 (UTC)
* If a canon source identifies and separates the Alliance and the rebellion, why we should create our own thing and say it was the same. When I did the CT of using promo photos from the movies but that were published in a legends source, you guys told me respecting what Lucasfilm and the Story Group decide rather than pushing and create our own rules". For me is clear that although IT IS the prelude to the Alliance hence why its mentioned in the prelude of that page, but it also is also not the same the network operated differently to how the alliance did. --DarthRuiz30 (talk) 22:25, October 20, 2017 (UTC)
* Our point isn't that we shouldn't follow canon sources, but rather that you're misunderstanding what those sources are saying. - Brandon Rhea(talk) 22:31, October 20, 2017 (UTC)
* Gotta agree with Brandon and Tope here. The early rebellion, in whatever form it takes is clearly the same entity as the Alliance, just an earlier incarnation before they formally organized and gave themselves a name and common purpose. While individual cells may have operated and co-operated with each other, I don't think this is enough to suggest a distinct pre-Alliance organization. If Bail Organa and Mon Mothma were looking to unite them into a larger organization, then it stands to reason they would be helping to put them into contact with one another long before the official declaration of the Alliance. One of the key factors I think is that some of the main players in the early rebellion are the key figures in the establishment of the Alliance. I would support merging the articles. - Sir Cavalier of OneFile:FarStar.svg(Squadron channel) 22:35, October 20, 2017 (UTC)
* I'm not misunderstanding nothing, you can clearly see that the rebellion was under a leadership. The rebellion was the first resistance movement agains the Empire and after Mothma's speech it became the Alliance. Yes Mothma and Bail were looking to unite them more to bring them together, but meanwhile they were doing that, the commanded the cells and established communication with them, gave them orders and missions. Its an organization that collects all those cells, its not about those cells always working together, is about how those cells were under the guidance of Command.--DarthRuiz30 (talk) 22:38, October 20, 2017 (UTC)
* To me, "The rebellion" does seem to be more fitting to be a Prelude/Origins section for the Rebel Alliance article than a separate article. Imperators II(Talk) 23:12, October 20, 2017 (UTC)
* I agree it seems that the rebellion is best suited to be included in prelude or origins for the Rebel Alliance, it can also be covered in the Early rebellion against the Galactic Empire page as well as the relevant individual cell pages --Lewisr (talk) 23:55, October 20, 2017 (UTC)
* This is the last thing I'm going to say on this, and then I'm done. I think the fact that the StarWars.com Databank page for the Rebel Alliance does exactly as we're suggesting is pretty much irrefutable validation to merge. This sentence alone completely destroys the argument for separate articles: "Formed from resistance movements that arose during the Clone Wars, the Rebellion worked in secret for decades to overthrow the Emperor and restore democracy to the galaxy." The Rebel Alliance only formally existed for six years until the Emperor was overthrown, so "decades" is referring to the entire time period that encompasses "The rebellion" article. The SW.com Databank is treating this pre-formalization rebellion and time period as synonymous to the Rebel Alliance, and so should we. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 00:04, October 21, 2017 (UTC)
* We have basically been condensing and reorganizing the pages related to the "Rebellion" and merging pages together so i was wondering if we should go ahead with deleting the rebellion page and move that information to the Alliance to Restore the Republic page?03:02, October 22, 2017 (UTC)
* I'd like to give this another day to see if anyone else has an opinion. - Brandon Rhea(talk) 03:04, October 22, 2017 (UTC)
* No, is a coalition, the page is about the coalition that existed between cells that recieved information from Bail or Mothma, is not the same. This coalition evolved into the Alliance , just like the imperial remnants in canon evolved to the first order --DarthRuiz30 (talk) 03:07, October 22, 2017 (UTC)
* Well apparently I'm the only so, I think we could.move the page into Rebel cell kind of what Imperial remnant page is. I can modified it to history of rebel cells in general, in case the decision comes to remove The rebellion --DarthRuiz30 (talk) 04:42, October 22, 2017 (UTC)
* Please don't. The consensus, so far, is to merge. A rebel cell page is unnecessary considering all of that information will be covered under the individual cells, the early rebellion against the Galactic Empire, and the Prelude of the Rebel Alliance page. The only unique thing that a "Rebel cell" page could do is define what a rebel cell is, and that's unnecessary because it speaks for itself. - Brandon Rhea(talk) 04:43, October 22, 2017 (UTC)
* So what the purpose of imperial remnant, it speaks for itself since it wasn't like in legends. The propose of rebel cell page is to mention what it is and how cells operate. Is literally the same as imperial remnant that covers "favyions/cells" of.the empire. It doesn't makes sense what are you saying. --DarthRuiz30 (talk) 05:15, October 22, 2017 (UTC)
* This conversation isn't about the Imperial remnants or that page. - Brandon Rhea(talk) 05:20, October 22, 2017 (UTC)
* Same thing. Since apparently. Even the imperial one deserves more merge/delete than this. At least THIS was an organization with leadership of their own. Yes this became the rebellion, but it was their own thing before it. -DarthRuiz30 (talk) 05:24, October 22, 2017 (UTC)
* See this Imperial remnants, "The Imperial remnants were the various fractured constituents of the Galactic Empire which formed following the death of Darth Sidious", instead of sending everything to the trash can since its obvious you can't all add to the Alliance page save some information and do a rebel cell page explaining what it is, It would have the same policy of not adding Rebel cell to infobox just the particular cell, its a good way to move the information. Since the alliance page already has much of the rebellion information. And don't say "unnecessary" or "speak by itself" because that's not true, Imperial remnant explains by the name itself, we have an Army page just to say which armies existed, same for Navy. Doesn't make it too different, just on Navy of changing boats to spaceships. Its better than just merge and delete information. The rebel cell page would not include the information of how existed a network operated by Bail and others leaders. Just that various rebel cells existed during the early rebellion--DarthRuiz30 (talk) 08:10, October 22, 2017 (UTC) Only one person (the article's primary author) has objected to the merge, so I have gone ahead and merged the two pages. Most of the content on the rebellion was very detailed information that's already covered on the Alliance page or the various rebel cell pages. The part that wasn't, the military section, has been added into the Alliance page's military section. In regards to the above comments about Imperial remnants, if there are objections to that page then, as always, they can be raised on its talk page for further discussion. - Brandon Rhea(talk) 21:26, October 22, 2017 (UTC)
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