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| - File:Delete.png Delete — If it had their names I would let it go, but we don't even have that, so yeah. Delete. File:Katara End Sprite.gif Ruen File: Katara Sprite Season 3.gif 11:05, November 12, 2012 (UTC)< File:Keep.png Keep — They have a sufficient visual representation and while there is not much to say about them, there is just enough to warrant a page imo. As a bonus, the page emphasizes how ruthless the Wolfbats can be and how dangerous the sport as a whole is. 11:22, November 12, 2012 (UTC) I'd point out that stating they lost is implied by the fact that Wolfbats won, with Fire Ferrets coming second. Therefore that part is irrelevant. Showing how ruthless the Wolfbats are is not relevant to this team, and it's already stated what is needed on their page. They don't have sufficient visual representation because they appeared for about 5 seconds as they are carried away. We don't really see them fight otherwise, nor introduced like other teams (the rabaroos). Had they been given names, I'd agree, but otherwise, they aren't noteworthy. I'd think this is similar to the Palace Women deleted not too long ago. File:Katara End Sprite.gif Ruen File: Katara Sprite Season 3.gif 11:28, November 12, 2012 (UTC) I didn't say the page could be useful to show that the Wolbats won, I said that it was useful to emphasize how brutal they are, something that cannot be implied by knowing that they lost. So no, that part is not irrelevant. Their loss was the most brutal and fasted loss in the Tournament that we know, so again, no, that's not irrelevant. They have an image that shows their faces and the color of their outfits, so yes, that is sufficient visual representation. They have no name, you have that point, but that's the only one. No, it's not similar to the palace woman as she served absolutely no point at all. The Mo Ce See Lizards at least have relevance to Pro-bending and to emphasize the ruthlessness of the Wolfbats. Every case stands on its own, so no need to draw a comparison with other pages, especially when that comparison doesn't fly. 11:34, November 12, 2012 (UTC) I know you didn't say that, I was just stating it as a fact since that's a main point the page is being deleted. The Wolfbats' page states they won in brutal manner leaving their opponents (the Mongoose Lizards) seriously injured. I'd think that is enough mention, anything else is superfluous. The fact that the Wolfbats were brutal is mostly irrelevant to this team itself. Ermm, every other team has a picture on WRC game too, is this warranting a page each? Aside from the fact that they were shown (for about 5 seconds), nothing more is different really (we already know that all the other teams lost, so that's not noteworthy). You yourself said an appearance alone doesn't warrant a page. In this case, their appearance isn't worth a page. I was pointing out the similarities in names, or lack thereof, and brief appearances. Don't read too much into it. :P File:Katara End Sprite.gif Ruen File: Katara Sprite Season 3.gif 11:46, November 12, 2012 (UTC) By that logic you can take a lot of "duplicate" information off our pages as nearly every page has information on it that can also be gathered by having read another page -or simply watched the show, so that's really a moot point. Yes, every other team has such a picture, I am aware of that, but not every other team was mentioned or shown in the series, this one was, and they were notable by the fact that they suffered the quickest and most brutal knockout of the tournament. So if you read what I have said, you'd see that there is more to say than just "they appeared". I'm not reading too much into anything, I'm just saying that they cannot be compared and that "cases" like this should be gauged by themselves not in a comparison to something else when that comparison doesn't fly. 11:51, November 12, 2012 (UTC) The fact that the Wolfbats were brutal isn't relevant to the Mongoose Lizards, therefore I don't consider what little is actually relevant enough to warrant a page on its own. Ok, here's what we actually know that's relevant. They are a pro-bending team, they lost horribly. I don't really consider that enough since the same can be applied to every other team aside from the Wolfbats and the Fire Ferrets (with the exception of losing horribly, though we don't know that the Wolfbats didn't beat their other opponents in a similar way). The difference I had between this and the Rabaroos is the names, even then I don't really consider that worth a page. I was merely pointing out that your argument did include points of a similar nature. File:Katara End Sprite.gif Ruen File: Katara Sprite Season 3.gif 12:04, November 12, 2012 (UTC) Since they are the object of their brutality and thus the victims, I'd beg the differ that it is not relevant to them. They suffered major injuries -the baddest we've seen- and they last the fastest of anyone in the tournament. Given Korra's reaction to the time they lost in, it is relevant to note. Any similarities are rendered moot when it comes to VfD as everything needs to be taken on its own. 12:08, November 12, 2012 (UTC) Korra's reaction isn't relevant to the team itself - thus not enough to warrant a page on it's own. Losing the fastest in the tournament isn't really noteworthy, someone has to take the "title". Losing in a brutal way is - somewhat - a valid point, but then again, that's just evident of the extremes the Wolfbats went to, since they did end up outright cheating in the final match - and therefore, not greatly relevant outside the fact that they ended up taking the short straw (being victims of said brutality). Sorry, but I still don't see it being enough to warrant a page. >.< File:Katara End Sprite.gif Ruen File: Katara Sprite Season 3.gif 12:21, November 12, 2012 (UTC) You misunderstood me: Korra's reaction is relevant to note that the quickness of the Mo Ce Lizards defeat is special and thus enough to warrant a page. It is as noteworthy as any other fact we have about things on other pages. Together, those two points warrants the page on it's own. It remains relevant, regardless of what the Wolbats did later. So I'm sorry, but I don't see why the page should be deleted and the points that you raised. 12:28, November 12, 2012 (UTC) This would usually be the time that I'd agree with you, but not this time. This time I'm still not convinced those two (in my opinion) minor points are enough to warrant a page. But, I guess that's what consensus is for, right? :) File:Katara End Sprite.gif Ruen File: Katara Sprite Season 3.gif 12:33, November 12, 2012 (UTC) You are free to do so, I'm just don't find your arguments to delete the page to have any merit and I think that you're driving the deletion spree of articles too far with this one. But yes, that's why there is a consensus needed. 12:35, November 12, 2012 (UTC) To be fair, I was not the one to post this up, therefore I'm not a hundred percent convinced. But your argument has, unfortunately, done little to sway me this time. File:Katara End Sprite.gif Ruen File: Katara Sprite Season 3.gif 12:38, November 12, 2012 (UTC) What my problem is that when the page is in a gray-zone, like here, it is better to keep it as then it has at least some value. Why choose for deletion when you yourself agreed that there are some points to be made to keep it? 12:50, November 12, 2012 (UTC) Because I said "somewhat valid point". I don't consider it noteworthy enough to keep the page with those points alone. Any page put up for deletion here is most, if not all, of the time in a gray-zone - it's just how much value it is worth that lets it be kept or deleted. But that is of course, most of the time (such as now), based on opinion. Thus, consensus. But you already know this. >.< File:Katara End Sprite.gif Ruen File: Katara Sprite Season 3.gif 13:01, November 12, 2012 (UTC) Actually, no. Most cases are straight-forward, look at all the fauna pages you put up for example. There are indeed cases where we enter a gray-zone, and when there truly is a gray-zone, perhaps it is better that we as a wiki develop the habit of keeping those pages around then instead of deleting them as we are an encyclopedia after all. I say "as a wiki", cause I have not always followed that practice either (just to say it now already before I would be quoted on an instance where I did not act as I am stating now). 14:51, November 12, 2012 (UTC) I guess you are sort of right. I'd say it's somewhere around 60% of the pages that are put up are usually pretty unambiguous (i.e. no gray-area). After looking over the archives, there was a fair few that were in the gray-area. But... anyway... As for your next statement, I'm not entirely sure. It seems like we are being too encyclopedic when it comes to certain pages. But that's the thing, what is too far and what isn't? As I mentioned in the Palace Woman discussion, it is hard to draw an exact line between not having a page and having one. What exactly do we base it on? Obviously it mostly comes down to just how important it is. But that's hard to judge when you can pull "importance" out of pretty much anything. I could maintain that the Palace Woman was of importance to the show as a whole, given that it was mainly a kids show and that it did need comedy in there since it wasn't all action/drama/etc. But then, are we to start listing every character that made an appearance, for joke or otherwise? I'll refer back to my statement I made within the post I mentioned - I pointed out that we don't have a page for the woman at Bosco's party who states "Ooh, the Avatar! I didn't know the Avatar would be here" after screaming. It seems odd we would separate the two. I don't see a difference between the two woman (in terms of role/importance), nor do I see the difference here. We can't really get much information on the two woman. While that alone isn't enough reasoning, I do feel that whatever information we can put down isn't all that important to warrant a page for itself. The same is said for the Mongoose Lizards, they appear for a few seconds and play as little part as the aforementioned woman does at Bosco's party. I know, it might seem like I'm going on a "deleting spree" but I'm really not. I do try to find reasons to keep pages, I don't wish pages to be deleted. The more, the better. But somewhere you do have to draw a line, but as I said, it's a difficult one to set. Aside, I don't like the negative connotation attached to the phrase "deleting spree". Am I now to be berated for deleting a bunch of fauna pages? I would hope not. I didn't want to delete the articles, but they did feel terribly small and without a need, and people agreed. I don't think I should be singled out negatively just because I was the only one who went through and did it - I don't do things to vandalise the wikia, I try to do what I can to improve it, as I've always have tried to. File:Katara End Sprite.gif Ruen File: Katara Sprite Season 3.gif 15:39, November 12, 2012 (UTC) No, you're definitely not the berated of anything so no need to get all defensive about it. It was a general statement, so I'm sorry if you took it personal, it was not my intention to single you out. As far that line, you're right when saying that it is hard to draw one, that's why I mentioned that we should perhaps try to move to a more mellow way of dealing with pages. With your examples, I would even say that the party woman would even have more merit than the other palace woman. You have a point that they are both ambiguous in the gray zone, but here is the difference between the two: one was made, the other was not. Thus the gray zone has become real for one, however, the other one does not need to be made, nor should this one be deleted just based on the mere fact that there are other page that could be in the same gray zone. This page should be judged on its own, and since we are an encyclopedia and there are points to be made in favor of the page, the page could stay in the gray zone and thus be kept on the wiki. 15:52, November 12, 2012 (UTC) That's ok, I didn't think you did. But it did have a slightly negative connotation with the word "spree". I made the point though to state that I don't do things to degrade the wikia, I am trying to help. I would hope this negates any inclinations I have been showing toward deleting as many pages as possible for no reason. But, so long as we are good. :) The party woman has just the same relevance of that of the Mongoose Lizards. They are merely there to advance the plot forward slightly. On her own, the woman is no different to that of any other party guest (except perhaps that she has a line, but then so do the two guys next to Bosco). For the team, they are no different from other teams (except the obvious exception of FF and Wolfbats - possibly rabaroos; only by them having names). I don't think we should judge pages on their own for the simple reason that we should be trying to keep things consistent and clean. Having one page with a barely any content and then not having another that has the same worth is very inconsistent, nor does it look very, for lack of a better word, professional. We should be judging the pages by the same standards, otherwise it becomes even more difficult to decide what should stay and what shouldn't. The Mongoose Lizards don't even get a line between the three of them (groans do not count). The party woman gets an entire line to herself, why are we not comparing the two? The party woman has arguably more relevance and more importance than this team. Right, it hasn't been made, because there's no point making it when it doesn't really have much to say. If someone did make it, her scene could be expanded to the same length, if not longer, than that of the Mongoose Lizards current page, but it'd really only be adding superfluous information, as is done on the Mongoose Lizards page. I'd also point out that the first line in history is speculation. We have no idea how they formed. They could've easily had team member changes like the FF did - they may not be the original three. File:Katara End Sprite.gif Ruen File: Katara Sprite Season 3.gif 16:21, November 12, 2012 (UTC) I really have little to no interest to start arguing a case for why this team and not the woman. The only thing I will say again is that since we're an encyclopedia, we should move away from our recent habit to delete pages that are in the gray zone and move more to a place where we keep them around. They are in a gray zone just because of the fact that there can be made a case both to delete as to keep them. In such situations, it seems smarter and more encyclopedic to keep them around. Should that mean that all such pages need to be created? No. But that does mean that we shouldn't jump any deletion guns when it comes to these gray pages. 16:34, November 12, 2012 (UTC) That would be very un-encyclopedic then. But, if you don't want to continue discussing the importance of the page then I guess we won't. It's pretty much decided with other people's votes anyway. File:Katara End Sprite.gif Ruen File: Katara Sprite Season 3.gif 17:10, November 12, 2012 (UTC) No, that would be the exact opposite of being un-encyclopedic. Do I want to discuss things that are better for the wiki? Yes. Do I want to discuss how to get a better habit? Yes. Do I want to have a gigantic discussion for every page like this or the party woman? No. 17:15, November 12, 2012 (UTC) "Should that mean that all such pages need to be created? No." That's un-encyclopedic. If this page is worth being kept, something equally (if not slightly more so) relevant is worth being made. File:Katara End Sprite.gif Ruen File: Katara Sprite Season 3.gif 17:18, November 12, 2012 (UTC) And now for the context of that quote: All pages should be viewed on their own. A page should not be made just because there is some other page that was in the same water that got the green light. So if someone does create such a page, we will gauge the value of that page then, but that person should not start creating those pages on the sole reasoning that this page was allowed to stay. 17:21, November 12, 2012 (UTC) That doesn't really change the fact that it is un-encyclopedic. You wanted to make the wikia more encyclopedic, that statement, regardless of context you add, is still stating the opposite of that. File:Katara End Sprite.gif Ruen File: Katara Sprite Season 3.gif 17:29, November 12, 2012 (UTC) That changes everything, context is important no matter how much you want to dismiss is as it is the concept of the gray pages -those of which a case can be made in both directions. If those pages end up being made, great, but they should not be made based solely on the reasoning "hey, that page got to stay, so now we must make them all". If those pages are made, it has to be because someone feels that they can make page out of the given information, and not just because some other page was kept. That is what makes it encyclopedic and the difference between the train of thoughts we're having here. 17:35, November 12, 2012 (UTC) Not true. The pages can be made on the reasoning that we're being encyclopedic, the same reason this page is being kept. Not making them makes it un-encyclopedic, as we're not being consistent, or a reliable, comprehensive information source. File:Katara End Sprite.gif Ruen File: Katara Sprite Season 3.gif 17:39, November 12, 2012 (UTC) The pages can be made on the reason that we're being encyclopedic, yes. Do all those gray pages allow for a decent page? Maybe, maybe not, hence the importance of case by case evaluation. That covers the rest of your argument as well. 17:50, November 12, 2012 (UTC) Yes, they should be judged case by case, but we shouldn't ignore the others completely. Otherwise, we aren't judging them by the same standards, of which we should be to help draw that fuzzy line a little clearer. File:Katara End Sprite.gif Ruen File: Katara Sprite Season 3.gif 17:54, November 12, 2012 (UTC) Are we ignoring the others. Nope, not at all. They just shouldn't be made under the pretenses that another page got made and got to stay -something entirely different than ignoring them. 18:02, November 12, 2012 (UTC) Other cases, previous pages that were up for deletion. Not other pages-that-could-be. Sorry, bit of a misunderstanding there. >.< But, I guess you have respite for now, since it's very late here. File:Katara End Sprite.gif Ruen File: Katara Sprite Season 3.gif 18:06, November 12, 2012 (UTC) File:Keep.png Keep — I must admit, it was a hard decision to make on the matter... When the page was first created, I had every intention to tag it for speedy deletion, but held off to see if it could be improved - as it after all had been made in good faith - though I did not hold much hope. However, per Lostris, it has just enough going for it for me to decide to keep. They were a notable semifinal team in the Championships, whose brutal defeat gave us an interesting insight to their profession; particularly the grayer areas of pro-bending conduct. All other circumstances combined, as well as the visual representation, I think it does (barely) warrant its own page. KettleMeetPot • wall 12:40, November 12, 2012 (UTC) File:Keep.png Keep — I agree with Lady Lostris and KettleMeetPot. 14:14, November 12, 2012 (UTC) File:Keep.png Keep — Per Lostris and KMP. —Preceding unsigned comment added by FireFerret (wall • contribs) 14:48, November 12, 2012 (UTC) File:Keep.png Keep — After considering both sides, I think both Ruen and Lostris have some good points, but I agree more with Lostris in this one. -- 18:42, November 12, 2012 (UTC) File:Keep.png Keep — Per above. DyingFlameTsui (wall • contribs) 18:50, November 12, 2012 (UTC) File:Keep.png Keep — Per Lostris and KMP. 21:32, November 12, 2012 (UTC) File:Keep.png Keep — Being a gentleman I agree with the Lady. Yu Yan Archer (Talk) 06:44, November 13, 2012 (UTC)
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