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| - __NOWYSIWYG__ This topic discusses weather the animal that is shown during "Tales of Ba Sing Se" is either a Tigerdillo or an Armadillo Lion. This forum has been made before, however I have reviewed the forum and with support from other users, have decided that with a new forum, the vote would most likely yield a different result. The main problem with the old forum was lack of reasoning and support from those who opposed the change (they all just simply said no), so if you are going to oppose please offer evidence against the reasons that are posted for the change. Also, very few people voted.A link to the old forum is found here. The arguments for the change of naming the animal a Tigerdillo and not an Armadillo Lion are as follows. "The first is the facial shape of the animal. The wider shape and tufts of hair on the side of the face are much more commonly seen on tigers than any species of lion. The second is the animal's paws. The wider shape and toes are more commonly seen on a tiger. I should also point out that the tigerdillo has actually been named in the show (meaning someone has actually said "tigerdillo") while the armadillo lion has not." -Dancepowderer. After hearing these arguments, it is clear the animal is a Tigerdillo and that no such animal as the Armadillo Lion exists in the world of avatar (yet). I am for the second time proposing that the information on the Armadillo Lion page be moved to the Tigerdillo page, and the Armadillo Lion page be deleted. Eigne85 (wall • contribs) 01:53, April 17, 2013 (UTC) I'm not really picking a side here as one can make an acceptable case for both names, I just want to put the arguments for the tigerdillo into perspective with some of the arguments that could easily be given to say that it is an armadillo lion:
* The most recognizable trait of a tiger are its stripes. Wouldn't it be the most logical thing then for the creators to at least put stripes on this animals paw if it truly was supposed to be part tiger?
* This animal is way more tawny colored than any healthy tiger -and a lion is also tawny colored.
* The paw size is really a debatable point as a male lion's paws are also shaped like that. The toes standing out like that is just because the animal stretched them when it roared and startled like that.
* Yes, the tigerdillo was mentioned by Zuko, but it was in a totally different context. Based on that, one can make a case that it is the same animal as well as a different one. Due to the lack of any visible evidence and/or concrete descriptions, the tigerdillo could be a completely different animal -or it could also be this one.
* What we know for sure about the tigerdillo is that it is known for its roar and that it is defensive, and yes, the first thing we saw the animal at the zoo do was roar and then curl up into a ball. Then again, wouldn't everyone expect an animal that is claimed to be a hybrid between an armadillo and lion or an armadillo and a tiger to be defensive and roar? Basically, what it comes down to is that we have no proof either way -so claiming this to definitely be a tigerdillo is actually just as speculative as saying that it is an armadillo lion. However, with the armadillo lion (which is named in line with animals like the armadillo wolf and the armadillo bear, which have their armadillo armor the same way as this animal) we have put up the conjunction template as we don't know for sure how it's called. The tigerdillo was named on the show, and thus would not need said tag. However, not having the tag would give the message that it is something definite and confirmed, which in this case would be speculative in the fact that there also has never been any conclusive evidence to say that the animal Zuko named to be a tigerdillo is in fact a reference to this animal. Only the creators know for sure, I guess. 07:48, April 17, 2013 (UTC) we may have no proof that they are the same, but there is no proof they are different either, it's whatever makes the most sense, and armadillo lion does not make sense given what we know.--Boomeraang Squad, always right back at ya. (wall • contribs) 21:24, April 17, 2013 (UTC) How exactly does armadillo lion make no sense based on "what we know"? As said previously, all we know about the tigerdillo is that it is defensive and roars, not exactly a detailed description if you ask me. 21:55, April 17, 2013 (UTC) while i do recognize the ambiguity and lack of definitive evidence, i would like to point out the fact that the creature in the given picture does not have a mane, as lions do. true, females do not, however if the creators intended for this to be a lion, i believe they would have had the signature mane. also, lions tend to be less orange in coloring, and more uniform - no white fur on their face. personally, this looks like a tigerdillo to me. Intelligence4 (wall • contribs) So you are denouncing this animal to be a lion due to the lack of its trademark mane (for a male lion), and claim it to be a tiger because of that -even though it also lacks the trademark stripes that all tigers have? The reasoning for the coloring that a lion doesn't have white is also rather flawed, as a has indeed more white on its belly, but never its paws like this, and even though the amount of white on a tiger belly varies substantially, there are always striped running over it and definitely over the paws. The fact remains that there are no decisive arguments to claim this animal to be a tiger based as opposed to lion based, as those arguments are just as flawed -even though people seem to ignore that fact- as to say that this is a lion-based animal. What the "advantage" is of keeping this animal an armadillo lion is, however: 1.
* The conjecture template could remain at the top, thus signaling to every viewer that we don't know for sure. 2.
* It would be more speculative to claim for sure that this is a tigerdillo as there is no solid proof to be found for that and all the "definite" claims and evidence are easily refutable. So I would say, let's do ourself a favor and just keep it named as it is. It is speculative, yes, but it is less due to the template at the top -a template that would be deleted as "tigerdillo" has been mentioned, though no one know (except for the creators, so perhaps we should ask them), if the animal Zuko mentioned indeed looks like this. It would really be an unfounded claim to put this image together with that name. 07:11, April 19, 2013 (UTC) do we have a tigerdillo page? i can't seem to find one..... in the case that we don't i think the armadillo lion page should just be renamed to tigerdillo, in the case that we don't, why do we not? we know for sure that the animal is canon and exists. and the animal in question if definitely a tigerdillo; we have never even heard the name "armadillo lion". furthermore, nothing about the picture looks like a lion, it does however look like a tiger. how long does it have to be before votes are tallied? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Intelligence4 (wall • contribs) 03:43, 21 April 2013 (UTC) The tigerdillo has a mention on the Fauna in the World of Avatar page, cause we cannot say for sure that the tigerdillo is this animal. Claiming them to be the same without evidence at all -putting this animal of episode 215 together with a mention in episode 318- is really stretching it and completely basing yourself on speculation. We used to have a page for the tigerdillo, but it was deleted since we don't know anything about it. All we know -based on its name- is that it is a hybrid of a tiger and an armadillo, and due the Welcome to Republic City game, we know that it is defensive and know for its roar. That information is not nearly enough for a page. We don't know how it looks like, thus we can't even make an anatomy section for it; we don't know for sure where it lived, so we can't mention its nationality; we don't know any of its behavior -besides "defensive"- so we can't list that. The page was (and will be if it would be created again) extremely short and thus got deleted in favor of a mention on the fauna page. The fact that we have never heard the name "armadillo tiger", does not decisively prove that this animal is a tigerdillo instead. Besides, that's also why that conjecture template is for, to alert people that the name has not been said on the show. "nothing about the picture looks like a lion, it does however look like a tiger" Erm, where are the trademark stripes of the tiger? Where is the trademark orange fur? No where, that's where. Now for the already mentioned rebuttal: "it's not a lion, cause it doesn't have manes" --> lionesses don't have manes, but that do have than tangy color that this animal has. Sure, they don't have white paws (though there are white lions who do have such white paws), but neither does a tiger. A tiger has some white on his belly, but that varies greatly from animal to animal and the white is never just white, there are always stripes running through it. There is no decisive evidence to claim that this animal is a tiger, nor is there decisive evidence to say that this is a lion. However, as I mentioned before, just stating this animal to be a tigerdillo based on the sole fact (cause all the other so called "evidence" can be easily refuted as I have done so already) that Zuko mentioned is, goes completely against our policy of not having speculation on our wiki. Only the creators can decisively say that this animal is a tigerdillo, but since they haven't, I'm waiting for the fool-proof evidence that proves that this animal is a tigerdillo -cause the moment that we would say that, the conjecture template would be removed and we will send out the message that it is a proven fact, which it simply is not. Votes are counted after there have been three days without a new comment or when 2 weeks have passed. 09:13, April 21, 2013 (UTC) LL, thank you for reading and responding to my reply. How about we delete both pages and only mention it/them on the fauna page? both possibilities seem rather lacking, and most people here are in agreement that the picture looks more like a tiger than a lionIntelligence4 (wall • contribs) Nearly all animals with a visual representation have their own page -as it should be. It's not because the three people here, which hardly counts as a decisive majority, thinks that the animal looks more like a tiger, that it actually does. 18:12, April 21, 2013 (UTC) Per Lostris, the opinion of three people does not represent community consensus. --—Preceding unsigned comment added by Zhao's Fanboy (wall • contribs) 01:40, April 23, 2013 (UTC) Wow, ok, I am terribly sorry, I though I had responded to this. Ok the picture shoes an orange, maneless creature with a white underbelly. All this screams tiger, and the remaining attributes can be contributed to the armadillo. There is not one feature besides the presence of fur that insinuates this is a lion. In addition, I have yet to find a mention of armadillo lion amongst official sources anywhere.--Boomeraang Squad, always right back at ya. (wall • contribs) 02:58, April 24, 2013 (UTC) As Lostris mentioned, however, the animal lacks the trademark stripes of a tiger and has other debatable features which can also apply to a lion. Likewise Squad, we have no source for the term "tigerdillo" - the only note of it was when Zuko mentioned it when telling Aang to roar like it. So I have to agree that at this point, it'd just be changing speculation to speculation. 03:05, April 24, 2013 (UTC) as for official mentions, we also have the golden temple tigerdillos. the tigerdillo is a canon creature. the reason that they don't have stripes is that the armadillo shell is where the stripes would go, and armadillos don't have stripes, so that argument is invalid.(i thought i mentioned that in a previous response, guess not). anyway, lack of one trait (stripes) is trumped by the presence of many others (the ones that boomerang said screamed tiger) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Intelligence4 (wall • contribs) 22:22, 24 April 2013 Intelligence, no one here is contesting the fact that a "tigerdillo" is a canon animal. What we are contesting is the fact that the tigerdillo would be this animal, as there is no evidence of that whatsoever. Those two canon mentions do nothing more than just state that there is a tigerdillo in the Avatarverse, but we have no evidence of how the animal looks whatsoever. As for your defense for why this animal is a tigerdillo without stripes, that's wrong, cause tigers have stripes on there paws as well. So again, to sum up, there is no concrete evidence that definitely connect this animal to a tigerdillo -unless the creators would pitch in. 20:47, April 24, 2013 (UTC) But by the same token, there's even less evidence for the armadillo lion. In fact, there is no evidence at all in any Avatar media that a species called the armadillo lion exists. We know tigerdillos exist because Zuko told Aang to roar like one and a pro-bending team took it as their name. With so much overlapping evidence for both sides, I would have to choose the animal we actually know exists and not what one person's take on the animal happened to be at the time the page was created. 21:36, April 25, 2013 (UTC) Please, at least read what I and others have been saying so far, as all your points have been addressed before, so if you don't mind, I'm just going to copy/paste the relevant parts then as opposed to typing them out yet again: "there is no evidence at all in any Avatar media that a species called the armadillo lion exists." My answer as given in the first message I posted here already covers that: "However, with the armadillo lion (which is named in line with animals like the armadillo wolf and the armadillo bear, which have their armadillo armor the same way as this animal) we have put up the conjunction template as we don't know for sure how it's called." From the fourth message I sent: "The fact that we have never heard the name "armadillo tiger", does not decisively prove that this animal is a tigerdillo instead. Besides, that's also why that conjecture template is for, to alert people that the name has not been said on the show. "We know tigerdillos exist because Zuko told Aang to roar like one and a pro-bending team took it as their name." My answer as given in the last message (sans this one) that I posted here already covers that: "No one here is contesting the fact that a "tigerdillo" is a canon animal. What we are contesting is the fact that the tigerdillo would be this animal, as there is no evidence of that whatsoever. Those two canon mentions do nothing more than just state that there is a tigerdillo in the Avatarverse, but we have no evidence of how the animal looks whatsoever." "With so much overlapping evidence for both sides, I would have to choose the animal we actually know exists and not what one person's take on the animal happened to be at the time the page was created." My answer to why renaming this page to be a Tigerdillo would be more speculative than to keep this named an "armadillo lion": 1.
* From the first message I posted: "The tigerdillo was named on the show, and thus would not need [the conjecture] tag. However, not having the tag would give the message that it is something definite and confirmed, which in this case would be speculative in the fact that there also has never been any conclusive evidence to say that the animal Zuko named to be a tigerdillo is in fact a reference to this animal." 2.
* I recapped this more or less in the third message I sent: "The fact remains that there are no decisive arguments to claim this animal to be a tiger based as opposed to lion based, as those arguments are just as flawed -even though people seem to ignore that fact- as to say that this is a lion-based animal. What the "advantage" is of keeping this animal an armadillo lion is, however: 3.
* The conjecture template could remain at the top, thus signaling to every viewer that we don't know for sure. 4.
* It would be more speculative to claim for sure that this is a tigerdillo as there is no solid proof to be found for that and all the "definite" claims and evidence are easily refutable. So I would say, let's do ourself a favor and just keep it named as it is. It is speculative, yes, but it is less due to the template at the top -a template that would be deleted as "tigerdillo" has been mentioned, though no one know (except for the creators, so perhaps we should ask them), if the animal Zuko mentioned indeed looks like this. It would really be an unfounded claim to put this image together with that name." 5.
* From the fourth message I sent: There is no decisive evidence to claim that this animal is a tiger, nor is there decisive evidence to say that this is a lion. However, as I mentioned before, just stating this animal to be a tigerdillo based on the sole fact (cause all the other so called "evidence" can be easily refuted as I have done so already) that Zuko mentioned is, goes completely against our policy of not having speculation on our wiki. Only the creators can decisively say that this animal is a tigerdillo, but since they haven't, I'm waiting for the fool-proof evidence that proves that this animal is a tigerdillo -cause the moment that we would say that, the conjecture template would be removed and we will send out the message that it is a proven fact, which it simply is not." 07:30, April 26, 2013 (UTC) i think we have given enough reasoning for both sides, let's just tally the votes already. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Intelligence4 (wall • contribs) 18:08, 27 April 2013 (UTC) Per LL and others, the current name seems a lot less speculative. 22:25, April 27, 2013 (UTC) I agree. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Why change one speculative title for another (more speculative)? ― Thailog 00:41, April 28, 2013 (UTC)
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