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| - __NOWYSIWYG__ With the recent revelation that the Earth Kingdom is now ruled by an Earth Queen, the title of the page is no longer accurate. I propose we rename it to a gender neutral title, which can account for both King and Queen. The only titles that come to mind are "Earth Sovereign" and "Earth Monarch". I'm not sure if there is any difference between these two words in what they define, so I don't know if either one is more accurate to describe the position. Of course, if there are other viable, or more accurate words to define the position, feel free to suggest. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:45, October 6, 2013 (UTC) Agreed. If we know that there is an Earth Queen, then having the article titled Earth King is incorrect. I believe a term such as Monarchy of the Earth Kingdom would work well as an encyclopaedic name for the page. 19:53, October 6, 2013 (UTC) I agree, and I rather like the name Earth Monarch for the article. 20:52, October 6, 2013 (UTC) I also agree that "Earth King" is no longer applicable to describe the leader of the Earth Kingdom. I'm in favor of HammerOfThor's idea of a "Monarchy of the Earth Kingdom" title. To me, "Earth Sovereign" or "Earth Monarch" just doesn't sound right. Besides, the title changes depending on the ruler's gender, so they will formally be called Earth King ---- or Earth Queen ----. "Monarchy of the Earth Kingdom" sounds more encyclopedic and appropriate. --AvatarTylerftw (talk to me) 22:08, October 6, 2013 (UTC) I don't think "Monarchy of the Earth Kingdom" is optimum for the rename. It's something I'd use to describe the Earth Kingdom's government type, but not something I'd use to refer to a specific head of state, to a single individual. Council of Elders worked for the Air Nomads because their rulers were a group of people. Earth King or Queen may have advisors and the like, but the final call is still theirs. The fact the title changes based on gender is precisely why we need a gender neutral title. I'd be suggesting the same thing for the Fire Nation if we didn't know that Fire Lord is also used for female rulers. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:19, October 6, 2013 (UTC) I support "Monarchy of the Earth Kingdom" as well. It sounds good and encyclopaedic, imo. DyingFlameTsui (wall • contribs) 17:52, October 7, 2013 (UTC) I am in favor of renaming it "Monarchy of the Earth Kingdom". The United Kingdom is a good example of a country that has had both kings and queens as heads of state. The Wikipedia article for the King of the United Kingdom is called "Monarchy of the United Kingdom" so this very appropriate. Mts606 (wall • contribs) 22:24, October 7, 2013 (UTC) Still not what you'd call a specific individual. The article is about the head of state, not the ruling system, nor the royal family as a whole. Fire Nation is also ruled by a monarchy, you don't see anyone suggesting it to be renamed "Monarchy of the Fire Nation". Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:59, October 7, 2013 (UTC) I agree with Omnibender here— Monarchy of such and such makes it sound like a history of the ruling system, not an information on the actual position of King/Queen, its powers, and traits recognized with it. I like the name Earth Monarch, but it doesn't matter if it's some other name so long as its clear that the article is on the position. 02:13, October 8, 2013 (UTC) none of these ideas sound very accurate...why don't we call the page "Earth King and Earth Queen" if we have to change it. ideally, i think we should just leave it as is. the first sentence of the page says, the earth king, or the earth queen... So i think that takes care of any gender problems. Intelligence4 (wall • contribs) 04:45, October 8, 2013 (UTC) Earth King and Queen comes across as botchy, not to mention it gives off the idea of there being two heads of state simultaneously. Monarch or sovereign are both gender neutral and carry with them the meaning of one who has the power. We already have confirmation that the ruler is now and Earth Queen. Unlike Fire Lord, which we have confirmation is also the title for female rules, the EK head of state does change the title with gender, so something appropriate for both is required. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:46, October 10, 2013 (UTC) it may be preferable to have a gender neutral term, but it still has to be a correct term. "earth monarch" or "earth sovereign" is incorrect - the second one isn't even a noun, but an adjective, immediately throwing that option out. "earth monarch" isn't a term used in avatar at all. honestly, the best option would be to leave the title as is, which is still correct. also, in the first sentence, we already ID the position as king or queen. Intelligence4 (wall • contribs) 21:31, October 10, 2013 (UTC) Uh, yes, it is a noun. I don't recall tribal chief specifically being used either, the tribal part comes only from the fact they're chiefs of the Water Tribes, so that's not an issue as well. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:38, October 10, 2013 (UTC) tribal chief was used - the head of the water tribe was explicitly called a chief, and they are the water tribes. hence, their position would be tribal chief. the word "soverign" or "monarch" has never been used in the series, so i don't either of those would be appropriate or accurate to use. Intelligence4 (wall • contribs) 17:47, October 11, 2013 (UTC) The term "tribal chief" has not been used in the series like "Fire Lord" or "Earth King" have. Nowhere in the series, in any transcript, the term "tribal chief" has ever been used. We used it because we derived it from the nation's name, and its leader's position. The words "sovereign" and "monarch" are even listed as synonyms to king and queen in certain dictionaries, and are generally used in each other's definitions. Read up on their definitions. Every other suggestion so far falls short in some aspect: Leaving it as Earth King, even if adding a "or Earth Queen" to the article is incorrect, because it doesn't take into account the position of a female ruler; Earth King and Queen implies that there are two simultaneous rulers, which isn't the case. Sovereign and monarch, while not appearing in the series de jure, is the de facto position they occupy, with the added bonus of not introducing a gender incongruity between ruler and title, and since the terms qualify the same things, and per tribal chief name reasoning despite lack of it actually being said, they are a perfect fit. They are the most factually correct description there can be. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:27, October 11, 2013 (UTC) the term tribal chief on this wiki refers to more than the water tribes, and is reference to a form of government that we may discern they have, and we label it as such. in fact, we do not have a page at all that is dedicated soley to the ruling position of the water tribes. so making up a term for the earth kingdom is simply senseless, and we would have to label the title as unconfirmed, which is also something senseless as we do in fact have a canon title. furthermore, the term "earth soverign" or "earth monarchy" doesn't make sense. nobody calls, in reference to the person/position, a king "soverign". calling him a monarch does make sense, however, not when coupled with the adjective (earth), for the same reason as the word soverign. if the page were to be renamed, it would have to be something like "ruling figure of the earth kingdom" or "monarch of the earth kingdom". or, we would have a page entitled "monarchy" and include the firelord under this, none of which are good options. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Intelligence4 (wall • contribs) 03:19, 13 October 2013 (UTC) And yet, none of them have an actual source on the show, for any of the tribal societies in which the leader is a chief, so the "non canon title" template should be used for them as well. We have a canon title for the ruler of the Earth King, but it only applies when the ruler is a male, which was fine before, since all known rulers were male, but that is no longer the case. The status quo is not the same any more, so "Earth King" is no longer an accurate term, since there is an "Earth Queen". It's not "Earth Monarchy", it's "Earth Monarch". People don't call kings queens or queens kings, they address to them with the proper, gender appropriate title, we call males kings, and females queens. They flip flop according to the gender of the ruler, because the words are usually used when referring to a specific ruler. The article isn't about only males any more, the position is now held by both genders, and unless someone devises a way for an article to be named with two different titles at the same time, having either "Earth King" or "Earth Queen" is inaccurate. What you want, is essentially for as to call the Earth Queen a king. Even the article itself uses the word sovereign in the very first sentence to define the term. And just because they're called kings or queens, it doesn't make them non-monarchs or non-sovereigns, if anything, king and queen are the gender specific words for the word monarch or sovereign. What is the problem with "Earth Monarch/Sovereign"? It's grammatically the same as "Earth King". Senseless is that you're suggesting, electing to ignore the way the English language works and basic logic over a technicality, and in the process keeping the article listed with an inaccurate title. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:36, October 16, 2013 (UTC) while i don't edit here, I do want to bring up a possible idea
* would there be a problem if both an article on earth king and earth queen were created?
* earth king was notable in the last avatar...--Nerfmaster8 (wall • contribs) 23:57, October 17, 2013 (UTC) The issue isn't notability, it's accuracy. And having separate articles both for positions is redundant. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:02, October 18, 2013 (UTC) [EDIT CONFLICT] Earth King was notable in ATLA, yes, however what's the point in having two articles, as both positions achieve the same thing. It would just be repeated information. I'm in favour of renaming it to 'Earth Monarch', as it is (now) either a king or a queen. FruipyLoops File:Toph-DoBS-2.gif 00:05, October 18, 2013 (UTC) since it seems everyone is in favor of changing the title, then i will conceed. the best title would be "monarch of the earth kingdom." Monarch=a person, monarchy=style of government. we're going for the person, so "monarch of the earth kingdom." it wouldn't make sense to rename it as "earth monarch" because that follows the speech pattern of "earth king/queen" but does not use the proper wording, and implies that people actually refer to the person as the "earth monarch", which they don't. Intelligence4 (wall • contribs) 02:44, October 19, 2013 (UTC) That's why we have the conjectural title template. And Earth Monarch is grammatically the same as Earth King or Earth Queen, I don't see the problem with it from the language point of view. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:45, October 19, 2013 (UTC) Omni's pretty much outlined al of my arguments. I agree with him. File:Waterbending emblem.png Water Spout 21:51, October 19, 2013 (UTC) again since i have not watched any of the newer episodes, could someone point me in the right direction regarding the new earth queen? can't find anything relating to this on Google.--Nerfmaster8 (wall • contribs) 04:47, October 20, 2013 (UTC) It was confirmed by Bryan on his tumblr. File:Waterbending emblem.png Water Spout 05:31, October 20, 2013 (UTC) thanks water spout for the link. --Nerfmaster8 (wall • contribs) 21:40, October 20, 2013 (UTC) I agree that Earth Monarch is quite appropriate but it could also be noted that when referring to Monarch titles they are often termed "King of England" or "King of Spain" even when there have been Queens. They are termed by the politically preferred gender, males. I am simply pointing this out in case it holds any consequence, though I personally find "Monarch" to be a more professional and accurate term for this wikia. --Tree_Climber Bonjour! 04:25, October 21, 2013 (UTC) Correction; most encyclopedias call it simply "Monarchy of (...)" unless the title is gender-neutral per se. As for Spain, it indeed is "Monarchy of Spain". DyingFlameTsui (wall • contribs) 08:39, October 21, 2013 (UTC) Yes, encyclopedias; I was simply referring to normal, personal referral to a monarchy. --Tree_Climber Bonjour! 04:01, October 22, 2013 (UTC) exactly what i was saying before. so the page should be renamed, if at all, to "monarch of the earth kingdom" Intelligence4 (wall • contribs) 22:39, October 21, 2013 (UTC) Encyclopedias do that because they cover the entire family or the entire ruling system. The article in question is about a specific post, held by one person at the time. Why is that so hard to understand? I don't see anyone arguing for renaming "Fire Lord" to "Monarchy of the Fire Nation". Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:43, October 21, 2013 (UTC) While I agree with you, It should be noted that the term Fire Lord was used for both genders (Azula was named Fire Lord, not Fire Lady) so the conflict isn't the same with Earth King vs Earth Queen. --Tree_Climber Bonjour! 04:01, October 22, 2013 (UTC) Actually, we mention facts about the government system and the royal family on the "Fire Lord" article as well, because, well, monarchies are government systems in which one person/the royal family IS the government and defines the politics. And per Tree Climber, the "Fire Lord" is a gender-neutral title - thus, we name the article "Fire Lord", just like wikipedia names the article about the rulers of ancient Egypt Pharaoh, as it is gender-neutral as well. This doesn't count for titles like "King/Queen" however. DyingFlameTsui (wall • contribs) 17:09, October 22, 2013 (UTC) And it wouldn't be preferable to have a similarly gender neutral term for the ruler of the Earth Kingdom that perfectly describes it over a title that invokes the ruling system instead of ruling person because...? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:15, October 22, 2013 (UTC)
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