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| - Lots of people gave their opinion on the Talk:Main Page#Quotes in Articles page, and they all seemed pretty supportive of this idea. Given the comments on that page, does anyone think the consensus does not/will not like the current implementation?--Dagg 13:14, 20 January 2007 (PST) A lot only said it was and interesting idea. Then someone people have been asking how to create a poll. So here we are.-- 13:16, 20 January 2007 (PST)
* That's what I said to the Captain, who seems pretty defiant. See my talk page to see his rather nasty comments to me and Smokey2. -- 13:17, 20 January 2007 (PST)
* Bringing the interpersonal stuff into this discussion is irrelevant. That said, I took a look and Captain did not say anything harsh other than using the word "random". He also repsonded with restraint to highly emotionally laden words from the other participant (pshyco smokey monster/the monster) on at least three occasions. The Captain's points are valid, but seem to have been taken as escalation or personal attacks, which they were not: 1) Disagreements on large changes require consensus and discussion. 2) personal investment in one's edits does not belong in a wiki (e.g. "I worked so hard on my edits"). IMHO. Anyways let's drop this topic completely, or some tempbans may be considered. -- 14:57, 20 January 2007 (PST)
* Use them sparingly and More discussion neededIn my opinion it would be good to have 1 page with an example on it to view. And leave it as the only one to stop the editing wars until an agreement is reached as Santa suggested. However in saying that to me the quotes don't look very good especially with the red border. I think them being used sparingly could possible work but having them on every page would be too much. Also an agreement needs to be come to on what quotes go on what page. Does a quote have to be said by a character to go on their character page or can another character say it about them. At any rate I think it is too early to start going quote crazy and it is not too late to have an intelligent conversation regarding them on this page.-- 13:36, 20 January 2007 (PST)
* O.K I agree with Leafy but in the meantime can you do something about Insano and him deleting the pre-existing quote boxes?
* Can we agree on a page to leave 1 or 2 quotes on? Perhaps Bernard's page as an example?-- 13:43, 20 January 2007 (PST) They can make a page called User:Lost Soul/Quote Example, like LOCI did. But I will never agree to change the normal page.--- 13:46, 20 January 2007 (PST)
* The quotes really aren't doing much harm where they are. --THE MONSTER
* I have created a page to try and stop this argument. This is what Bernard's page would look like with quotes. It is exactly like the normal one. Could we please link to it on this page and the article page and leave all normal articles the way they are. This will allow people to see what the pages would look like without quote will making everyone happy (hopefully).-- 13:52, 20 January 2007 (PST)
* Mr. Leaf makes some great points, and I agree with them. As I said earlier, I don't have a strong objection when this stuff is used in moderation, though I'm not a fan of the red dotted line border either (I think we can make this look less "patchworky"; but this wouldn't necessarily be an article-by-article edit, just a few simple ones to the template). I also think they're a little overdone already. I think in this case where there are people who do have strong opinions on it (I am not one of them), we should slow down and get more editors involved in the discussion. So far, I've seen opinions from about 5 or 6 users; at its height during the seasons, we have close to a hundred regular editors alone. I'll repeat my stance that it's not bad when limited, but is not integral to the site, so we can be a little patient about this one and do a few example pages. -- 13:54, 20 January 2007 (PST)
* Agreed. Let's let this settle until we get many more editors in the discussion than the half dozen or so we have presently. I also agree that the use of quotes is not necessary, but is simply an enhancement of cosmetic "polish", which is indeed a direction we have been working toward (e.g. more images, a new site skin in progress) since the arrival of abc's official wiki. Therefore it is not an issue that needs to be resolved with haste. -- 15:01, 20 January 2007 (PST) This has escalated unreasonably. In my opinion, Lost Soul and some others made a good faith attempt to try and get consensus before these changes were implemented. I saw several discussions on the main page over the last 2 weeks, and sandbox pages were made, and people were personally asked their opinion on user talk pages, etc. It is clear that a good faith attempt was made. There is not really a central place to say things on a wiki to make sure everyone sees what is proposed, and make sure everyone has had their chance to give their opinion. For that reason, I understand why someone could feel left out of the loop, and someone could feel betrayed by edits happening without their pre-approval. Really, the only option an out-of-the-loop user would have is to delete the non-approved edits. I don't want to pick sides here, but I do want to point out that the cursing and name-calling is quite embarrasing. Everyone who is engaging in that kind of behaviour is wrong. There are no excuses.--Dagg
* IMHO: Quotes with moderation (1-2 per article), might add polish to a good and otherwise complete article, if chosen carefully. Adding more quotes than this however will become detrimental very quickly, and this is a significant concern of mine. Practically, there is the consensus problem of: Who gets to choose the quote?
* Suggested guidelines for character articles: 1.
* Incidental characters get one quote only 2.
* Main cast characters 3.
* if the article is already complete with plot summaries separated by season, can get one quote per season header. 4.
* The article should not have a quote topping the page as a whole
* Suggested guidelines for episode articles:
* Episode may have one quote each for 1) Flashback synopsis, and 2) Real time synopsis.
* The article should not have a quote topping the page as a whole
* Suggested guidelines for other articles:
* Other article types should not have wholesale addition of quotes without discussion, as this is a practice that can easily be overdone.
* Choosing quotes:
* Some process should be determined to take a straw poll on quote selection. Note: interpersonal stuff can easily end now. All participants simply limit discussion to the issues only, as we are hoping for consensus for the good of the wiki, not "winning" on an individual basis. Thank you. Any future citations of interpersonal issues on this page may be subject to tempbans. -- 14:52, 20 January 2007 (PST)
* I do want to recognize that LS has done a lot of hard work in finding quotes, etc, first off. However, I'll just make the comment, echoing some of the above, that quotes should only be used if they give some kind of window into the character's motivations or central beliefs, or for an episode article, only pivotal quotes that exemplify important themes should be used. I don't think the Pickett that were up do that... sorry, not to pick on particular edits, but just as an example of how to move forward. -- 15:52, 20 January 2007 (PST)
* Mine (and LOCI's) idea for this was to have quotes used sparingly. THese quotes would reflect the character's experiences during theseason that the quote referred to. For example, on the John Locke page, the Season 2 quote was "It's not real! None of this is real!" I think that this quote adds to the page as it sums up in a few words the character's experiences during that season. As for the border and the overall design of the box; of course it can be changed. I have absolutely no qualms with that. However, I do not think there's much that can be done; I think a solid border would look strange, and a dotted border without a colour would look odd if it was not red (for example if it was yellow, or blue). But as I said, if someone wants to change it and it looks better the new way, I'm all for it. In fact, I just changed it to a darker green, and I think it looks TONS better, and a lot less unobtrusive. I do agree that this situation has gotten out of control, and, yes, maybe I was responsible in part. It all started with me asking the Captain for his views on a one-to-one basis, and it just went on from there. However, I cannot agree with Santa's comment: "Captain did not say anything harsh other than using the word "random"." This is not true. His overall attitude was nasty, IMO, but w/e, it's not important and not relevant, so I'm dropping it. I have apologised to the Captain, and, as far as I'm concerned, that's the end of the matter. So, in conclusion, I agree with Santa's proposal mostly: Only relevant quotes; main cast characters have one for each season, and minor characters only have one. I believe that's what we were doing already. However, and this is my only problem, doing a straw poll for each quote takes time. I say leave it to the editor who makes the quote and if you don't like it, change it. I also believe that quotes illustrate themes nicely; for example, on the Parent Issues page, there is a quote above each section which does well to illustrate the issue/theme it addresses. So, this template can be used effectively; it just needs to be used correctly, and, I agree, I was a little too hasty this time. So sorry about that. Namaste, -- 23:31, 20 January 2007 (PST)
* Examples of some of the quotes:
* "Now, you chose to take out the computer now."-Arzt on Arzt page
* "You're Walt's old man, aren't you?" - Danny on Pickett page
* "Kate Austen, you're under arrest for murder."-Mars on Edward Mars page
* "No matter how she makes you feel, don't you trust a word that she says."-Mars on Edward Mars page
* "Dude, I think Leslie's a bitchin' name."-Hurley on Hurley page
* "You're not going to, like, turn into the Hulk, or something?"-Hurley on Hurley page If you guys need for me to continue I will (trust there is a lot of material). Seriously random. If you guys did this on you first time of trying, what will the second time be like. ("Did that bird just say my name?"-Hurley)-- 09:35, 21 January 2007 (PST)
* If people don't like our quotes they have the liberty to change them as is the nature of wikis. THE MONSTER
* But if the person never said a quote that is worthly of quoting there is not point of picking a random, stupid quote.-- 09:38, 21 January 2007 (PST)
* Some good guidelines have been suggested so far but here are a couple more suggestions on my part. 1) As stated it is user discretion as to which quote suits a character or episode, etc. And not all users are going to agree with it. And I agree a straw pole for each quote on each page would be useless and very quickly nobody would bother responding. I think it would be better if a section was created on the talk page called quotes. Then when a user adds or changes a quote they could add a brief summary as to why they did and why they think it is important to the article. This would at least give other editors who question whether the quote belongs a place to read what the user was thinking and perhaps start a discussion on it? 2) For character pages does a quote have to be said about the character or by the character or could it be either one? 3) I agree with Captain. If you cannot think immediately of a quote said by or about the character that stands out then their is no need for a quote for that character and no need to search for one. Just a couple quick thoughts but I think what has been suggested already is a very good foundation.-- 09:40, 21 January 2007 (PST) Captain Insano has did a good job of cleaning up all the existing quotes. Now that we can start off with a clean slate, I vote to start putting selective quotes on some pages. Lots of good points above about using them carefully and not going overboard. I don't think anyone at all would disagree that we can have some quotes on some pages. Where do we start from here? I propose we start a vote on the smallest possible implementation of this (next section).--Dagg 09:52, 21 January 2007 (PST)
* Undecided-- I'm still on the fence about this one. Despite being a wiki, we are a fan site: (we do original research, we have always had fan theories, we have a news portal, and a forum)-- So we are not just a "serious encyclopedia" but we also care about cosmetic polish, as seen in the changes in the design of the site (colors, rounded boxes, site logo) in the past year (with even more to come). In that light, I believe a very limited use of quotes add "polish"... but echoing PandoraX, it does so only if the quote illustrates the essence of the topic (and Captain cited some examples that do not qualify ih this regard). I fear that in implementation, everyone will scramble to find a quote, any quote, for every article that qualifies. Wikis are not democracies, so perhaps we can find some undemocratic arbiter (sysops, or a designated user) who is able to remove quotes that do not qualify (in their opinion), without needing a poll each time. If we can do that, then this is just one more positive way we can compete cosmetically with the ABC wiki.-- 12:37, 21 January 2007 (PST)
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