Then the big crunch hit [in the mid-1980s Sierra On-Line weathered a bankruptcy threat through a major reorganization ] and I started doing QA (Quality Assurance) work as well as support stuff. As I got closer to where they were creating the games, I saw Mark Crowe and Doug MacNeill working on graphics for King's Quest 2 and Black Cauldron, and I was intrigued. I started bugging Ken to let me try a game. I saw people working on programming, and I knew that if they could do it, I could do it. So I kept bugging Ken, and finally he shut me up and let me try it. I put in a lot of free time over his house debugging Black Cauldron. And then I ended up being the only one working on it. After a while, Ken and Al Lowe bailed out on me. So I got Black Cauldron shipping, and I was hooked."